[quote=“fishguy9, post:20, topic:1505”]
[quote=“Jocephus, post:17, topic:1505”]
Never really understood the whole shoal vs. school thing. Maybe one of our resident biology majors would like to chime in…[/quote]
seems to me they are the same thing… isnt that what porter posted?[/quote]
That was the point
Joe, depending on what fish you go with, aggressive picking triggers like a huma might bother it. But if your going bluethroat route, they won’t bother it. Some people actually epoxy over the foam and put rubble rock to make it look more natural. The concrete idea is cool too, I just wonder how long DIY rocks take to cure?
fishguy9 and Al, do you guys see the difference in shoaling vs schooling now? It’s not a hard concept to grasp, at least I’d hope not :think)
[quote=“fishguy9, post:20, topic:1505”]
seems to me they are the same thing… isnt that what porter posted?[/quote]
Well, DamPep says that a shoal is a less organized school, Porter says they’re the same thing. Just wondering if any of our biologically educated members have any further ideas.
[quote=“DamnPepShrimp, post:22, topic:1505”]
fishguy9 and Al, do you guys see the difference in shoaling vs schooling now? It’s not a hard concept to grasp, at least I’d hope not :think)[/quote]
I don’t want to hijack the thread so I wont post about this any more but by definition A shoal is a school of fish. Therefore shoal=school Therefore if as you say they will shoal then they school.
[quote=“Porter, post:24, topic:1505”]
[quote=“DamnPepShrimp, post:22, topic:1505”]
fishguy9 and Al, do you guys see the difference in shoaling vs schooling now? It’s not a hard concept to grasp, at least I’d hope not :think)[/quote]
I don’t want to hijack the thread so I wont post about this any more but by definition A shoal is a school of fish. Therefore shoal=school Therefore if as you say they will shoal then they school.[/quote]
Is this one of those “a square is a rectangle, but a rectangle is not a square” deals, or are they just the same?
if a square is a rectangle… Y NOT JUST CALL IT A RECTANGLE!!!
kidding. i think someone got up on a horse that decided not to leave the stable. this all stemmed from a guy wanting a “school” of tangs. i say, dammit let him get one!!
sorry… we went from “a bunch” to “a harem” to “a school”. that’s where it all went downhill. i was thinking maybe just a “class” of yellow tangs would be sweet for my 180. i have seen it done, and MAN does it look nice. don’t really see convicts much, i will have to do some you tubin, see what a group would look like.
Wow i’ll get this back on track by asking what other things are you gonna add to the tank? Is it gonna be FO? Also if you DIY rock lemme know like to jump in on that and go in on the materials cost.
I give up, I can’t believe of all people Al, you can’t grasp this! I guess it is a good way to put it that a rectangle can be a square, but a square can not be a rectangle. So a shoal could describe a bunch of fish, but a school can not describe a loosely group of fish. Shoals have fish facing in different directions, different locations at different speeds. Schools have the fish all going the same way, pattern, speed, everything to look like one giant fish, shoals look like a group of fish. A harem is a group of fish that are scattered throughout an area, generally with one or two dominates (usually males and the rest females). If you had 5 flame angels, one male as the dominant, the rest female, but they were scattered throughout the tank and never really came together, that is a harem.
verdict_in that may help knock some sense into ya! ;D
I
[quote=“DamnPepShrimp, post:29, topic:1505”]
I give up, I can’t believe of all people Al, you can’t grasp this! I guess it is a good way to put it that a rectangle can be a square, but a square can not be a rectangle. So a shoal could describe a bunch of fish, but a school can not describe a loosely group of fish. Shoals have fish facing in different directions, different locations at different speeds. Schools have the fish all going the same way, pattern, speed, everything to look like one giant fish, shoals look like a group of fish. A harem is a group of fish that are scattered throughout an area, generally with one or two dominates (usually males and the rest females). If you had 5 flame angels, one male as the dominant, the rest female, but they were scattered throughout the tank and never really came together, that is a harem.
verdict_in that may help knock some sense into ya! ;D[/quote]
I looked up the scientific definition of School and shoal and a square is a rectangle but a rectangle can not always be a square. DPS is unfortunately for me, mostly correct.
[quote=“An Introduction to Ichthyology Fifth Edition by Peter B. Moyle and Joseph J. Cech, Jr.”]
Shoaling is perhaps the most fascinating social behaviour possessed by fish, although most attention has been focused on the most spectacular aspect of shoaling: schooling. A School of fish often seems to have a mind of its own, moving in co-ordinated fashion through complicated manoeuvres with the members precisely spaced within it. A shoal is any group of fishes that remains together for social reasons, whereas a school is a polarised, synchronised shoal (Pitcher and Parish 1993)
The distinction is necessary because experiments have shown that schooling is just an extreme example of many shoaling behaviours. It is important also to note that fish shift in and out of schools on a regular basis.
A shoal can go from the classic grouping of fish into an amorphous mass in a matter of seconds. The stimulus for this is a change of activity from travelling, feeding, resting, or avoiding predators. The shape of a shoal can vary widely depending on activity and type of fish; fast moving shoals typically assume a wedge shape whereas feeding shoals are more or less circular.
Shaw (1978) estimated that 25% of fish shoal throughout their lives and that approximately half of all fishes spend at least part of their lives shoaling. In many commercial species the largest shoals are formed when a number of smaller shoals merge. Radakov (1972) mentions “chains†of shoals of migrating mullet (Mugil)in the Caspian Sea that were 100km long! Radakov further noted that in the North Atlantic, herring shoals can occupy 279 million to 4,850 million cubic metres with a fish density of 0.5 to 1.0 fish/cubic metre. That’s almost 3 billion fish in one group
How do fish school?
Schooling requires precise sensory contacts among individuals within the schools. The fact that most schools (but not shoals) disperse after dark indicates that vision plays an important part in schooling. Laboratory experiments with temporarily blinded fish support this, but also show that other senses are used. It is believed that the lateral-line system (seeing as it is so sensitive to the movement of water) also plays an important part in ensuring the fish in a school maintain their spacing. It is also believed possible that sound or pheromones play a part but at this time there is no evidence to support this.
Why do fish shoal?
Landa (1998) argues that the combined effects of the below benefits of shoaling provide strong selective incentives for fish to join shoals.
Increased Hydrodynamic Efficiency
This applies mainly to schooling fish and is appealing both because of the regular spacing of fish in schools and because shoals tend to be uniform in size (Hoare et al. 2000). However, laboratory experiments have not shown the positioning of fish in schools to gain any advantage from the hydrodynamic lift created by their neighbours (Pitcher and Parish 1993) though it is still believed that this is the case in the wild. Landa (1998) argues that the leadership of a school is always changing, because while being immersed in a school incurs hydrodynamic advantages to individuals, being the leader of a school means you are the first to food.
Increased Efficiency of Food Finding
The reason for this is the presence of many eyes searching for the food. Fish in shoals “share†information by monitoring each other’s behaviour closely. Feeding behaviour in one fish quickly stimulates food-searching behaviour in others (Pitcher and Parish 1993)
Increased Reproductive Success
Little energy has to be expended to find a mate within a shoal. Also, for migrating spawners that travel long distances it is more likely that the average direction taken by a shoal is better than one taken by a single migrating fish.
Reduced Risk of Predation
This comes in two main interacting ways: dilution, and confusion (Pitcher and Parish 1993). The dilution effect relies simply on safety in numbers (Pitcher and Parish 1993). In any given attack, a smaller percentage of a large shoal will be eaten compared to a small shoal (Major 1978).
The confusion effect is based in the common observation that shoaling fish tend to get eaten mostly when they have been separated from the shoal. Shoaling fish are the same size and silvery, so it is difficult for a visually oriented predator to pick an individual out of a mass of twisting, flashing fish and then have enough time to grab its prey before it disappears into the shoal.[/quote]
Lesson learned, about.com and dictionary.com and (wikipedia) = decent knowledge but not ‘scientific’
/hijack
jeez… You should decide on a sump Size and a skimmer. those two things will allow you to come up with a proper stock list… I’m using a 75RR and i personally think that 75gal and up is an appropriate size sump to house a skimmer, refugium and return section. i actually wish my sump was bigger but it works. I use a MSX250 with the dual SICCE pumps and NW Impellers. it works great with a steady level in the section of the sump it sits.
[quote=“ds4x4, post:32, topic:1505”]
/hijack
jeez… You should decide on a sump Size and a skimmer. those two things will allow you to come up with a proper stock list… I’m using a 75RR and i personally think that 75gal and up is an appropriate size sump to house a skimmer, refugium and return section. i actually wish my sump was bigger but it works. I use a MSX250 with the dual SICCE pumps and NW Impellers. it works great with a steady level in the section of the sump it sits.[/quote]
+1 on your skimmer Andy. I have the extreme 200 with a SICCE and I love it.
I second the MSX skimmers, I plan on getting a MSX 300 for my 210g. When I upgrade, I will just get a second one, since its still cheaper then buying a BK or similar.
Joe, what angel were you planning on? I just got gorgeous queen and french angels. I have a good diver in the Caribbean that has great prices, if your interested in any fish from there, let me know.
Well, it depends on if I go the biotope route. I’d love to have a grey angel, I tried one before, but I think it wasn’t eating enough (died). I had a steady supply of aptasia, but when they were gone, it was too. I may just pick the fish I want and forget the biotope. I am looking at next (possibly) sunday making some rock. It got a little derailed for a bit due to me losing my job, but I’m back to work this week, so all is well.
Glad to see you got back to work that quickly! I like to pick the fish I want, rather than biotope. Biotopes are cool, especially since you were going the hawaiian route after diving there. I like the french over the gray, I’ve owned both and the french just looks 10x better to me, love the black and gold. Be sure to post up pics on your rocks, I am very interested on that, since I need to make some strong DIY rocks that are eel proof.