[quote=“DamnPepShrimp, post:20, topic:1646”]
Yes, ammonia and nitrite need to be zero at all times. >5 nitrates are ok. Fish aren’t really affected by nitrates, but inverts and corals definitely are. As far as DSB go, recent studies proved they are not beneficial. For a sandbed to work, there are bacterias that grow in it, converting ammonia to nitrate. In a deep sand bed, the bacteria found at the bottom has no oxygen and can actually end up converting the waste back to ammonia. A 1-3" max sandbed has bacteria that requires little oxygen but has been proven that is the benefical bacteria. There was a thread on RC about it, doubt it I could find it though, very interesting. Good thing I only have a 2" sandbed in my reef.[/quote]
Yeah I read that thread too. It seems denitrification actually happens mostly in the top 2" of sand depending on the grain size. I have anywhere from 0-3" in my tank depending on how the flow hits it. There are still people that have good luck with deeper sand beds though. I think it depends on how well you maintain them.
I would definitely keep some nass and fight conch snails. They do a good job of keeping the top layer of the sand turned over.
Well it now seems as though my ammonia, nitrates, and nitrites are all at zero. I checked them three times last night (twice in my DT and once in my sump) just to make sure. My nitrates may still be just a very small amount over 0, but it is definitely not anywhere near 5.
So, today I am going up to the LFS to get some snails, proabably some Cerith or Nassers. All depends on what they have and how much they are. Im thinking of probably getting somewhere around 15. I have read 1 per 5 gallons, so that would make about 10 or 11 in my DT and 4 or 5 in my fuge area.
Also, it looks as if my diatoms are slowly starting to recede. THe dark dark brown color that I had before is a little closer to a dark tan now.
[quote=“DamnPepShrimp, post:20, topic:1646”]
For a sandbed to work, there are bacterias that grow in it, converting ammonia to nitrate. In a deep sand bed, the bacteria found at the bottom has no oxygen and can actually end up converting the waste back to ammonia. A 1-3" max sandbed has bacteria that requires little oxygen but has been proven that is the benefical bacteria.[/quote]
The purpose of a DSB is not only to convert ammonia to nitrite and nitrate, but also in the lower anoxic regions to convert nitrate into nitrogen gas that is released. That only takes place in anoxic conditions, and is why DSB’s can serve a purpose in some tanks, but shouldnt ever be disturbed. The not ever disturbing them is why most people who try DSB’s fail miserably, because they go out and get sand sifting or burrowing animals which negate any effects of a DSB and actually cause more harm than good.
Still, a Joubert plenum sandbed eliminates most of the possibility of going anerobic and producing sulfides. its still my favorite sand bed structure. a passive denitrating machine. the only down side seems to be it is more visible and takes up tank depth. but a small price to pay for security and coral/fish health.
With my nitrates, nitrites and ammonia all at zero, I went ahead and bought my reef cleaners. At this moment, I have 1 peppermint shrimp, 12 nerite and 12 cerith snails… I am thinking about going and getting a couple of mexican turbos tomorrow, to help with the clean up and maintenance.
Looks like I may need something to beat up on my peppermint shrimp a little too. Seems he has a thing for snails. I watched him actually knock a snail off of a rock and start picking at it. I am assuming he was eating it. I wasn’t aware that peppermint shrimp were meat eaters, figured they were more scavengers and would eat diatoms and algae… guess I was mistaken…
shrimp clea up whatever food the fish drop to the bottom and thus help the filtration, like a skimmer. they eat the stuff before it breaks down to nitrates.
Idealy fine, deep sand beds have a dense population of sand boring worms, and critters slowly aerating and stiring and consuming organics in the sand. unfortunately we dont usually have that much life in a new sand bed, or even one run for may years. we just dont introduce that much variety. Ron Schimick likes fine, silty DSBs mostly because he is a bug-ol-ogist and interested in mostly the bugs. and they live in muck.
so i like a plenum system, that is an unatural structure that works more on the priciples of ionic difusion without the need for a lot of critters, and prevents a bunch of the DSB ammonia, sulfides problems. and denitrates too. but most people object to them because they take up a lot of vertical space in the tank they bought. leaving less room for rock and coral. so they go for a thin layer of fine sand. or berlin.
More lite reading to understand the bio processes.
I agree with you, Ted, DSBs and Plenum sand beds can be vary benificial. the difference is the level of care for each. Fine sand DSBs require a wide variety and quantity of bugs, worms, snails, bacteria … to keep it functioning over time, and not turn into a toxic emitter. as i said, most of us do not have the bio diversity to slowly digest and stir the fine sand. so i stick with a larger sand grain plenum. I have used both. the fine DSB was much more troubling for me. kept feeding and growing slime and cyano. I believe the plenum processes waste faster with fewer side effects.
Sand beds are a volatile subject in reefing. Just about everyone has experience and opinions on all manner of sand beds or not. the trick is to decide on your plan for tank waste processing. its not just the sand alone. that is just one tool. the tank, rock, sand, skimmer, fuge, and filter media all have to work together as a team to make a happy tank. that is the alchemy part.
[quote=“DamnPepShrimp, post:20, topic:1646”]
… recent studies proved they are not beneficial …[/quote]
No offense intended, but …
I find the claim that DSB’s are not beneficial to be absurd, given the plethora of anecdotal evidence to the contrary.
Scientific studies rarely prove anything. This is especially true of the past few decades.[/quote]
i am curious what studies proved they were not beneficial??? the one kaptken posted up here simply said one wasn’t more or less beneficial than the other. (dsb/plenum/berlin) maybe i missed something here.
you got it. that was pretty much the point. both can denitrate. but each has a different set of problems and needs. my old southdown DSBs turned into hydrogen sulfide farms because i over fed the fish in the tanks at the time. and didnt have the best circulation then. the sand was black and smelly less than 1 inch down in the 4 inch bed. i have found the plenums to be less trouble and faster acting. i just have to keep them clean of dust and mud. try em both and see which one you work with best.
I believe the amphipods are more shrimp like where as copepods are more like little fleas. I just call em all pods. Try to get a clearer picture, that might be those stupid hydroids that were in my tank, in the larval stage they look like little snowflakes.
Do I need to be worried about hydroids? I don’t see lots of them on the glass, just one or two at the most. By saying “stupid hydroids” I assume they are a pest that can cause a lot of havoc?
If I should be trying to minimize them in my tank, what exactly do I have to do?
[quote=“Jocephus, post:32, topic:1646”]
That is a hydroid. Google them, neat stuff. The snowflake looking ones usually go away before they can cause any harm.[/quote]
The snowflake looking ones usually go away before they can cause any harm.
hehehe It will resolve itself in a week or two. Don’t sweat it.
yeah i kno im new here, and you might not trust me as much, but im pretty sure thats an amphipod, and not a hydroid. youll be aight with them, they shouldnt cause any problems for you unless they are mass reproducing, in which case a simple copper treatment will whipe out most of em.
