Good post Ken
Well currents stats show than only 26% of young people under 30 have a 4 year college degree of any kind.
I wonder if the current stats show that 74% of all jobs are entry level with very little chance of advancement? ;D
so, uhhhh… did anyone help this guy find a job?? lmao!!
i don’t have any job openings but I am always glad to talk to the guys looking to get into the business, I myself left the corporate world to do this, and it can be rewarding, at least it’s better than working for the man
matt
East Coast Aquatics
good points there ken. it is funny that there are jobs galore but no one is really ready to get dirty and do back breaking work for the pay the job deserves. they either want too much money for the labor or wont do it for all the money in the world. i once was using a sewer machine on a storm drain in dover when a lawyer in a nice suit walked by. he said man i would not do your job, that is nasty! i just smiled and said ya well i make more than a lawyer does so the dirt will wash off… he turned walked off without saying another word.
[quote=“fishguy9, post:23, topic:2254”]
so, uhhhh… did anyone help this guy find a job?? lmao!![/quote]
Still unemployed last time I checked! haha
I agree that specific degrees are necessary for certain lines of work. A dentist for example. But my point was that an overwhelming majority of today’s college students, either through useless degree selection or dropping out, would be better off having not gone to college in the first place.
You’re brushing off the break-even point and the math by arguing that students develop some sort of analytical thought or learning process in college between bong rips.
Let me do some completely bogus numbers just to illustrate. I’ll even include a stupid graph made in Microsoft Paint. Person A and Person B both just graduated highschool. One goes into the workforce, the other goes into college.
Year 1
Person A gets a minimum wage job at a fish store. Makes $15,000.
Person B goes to UMiami to study Marine Biology. Goes into $30,000 debt.
Year 2
Person A gets a raise. Has $35,000 saved.
Person B goes further into debt owing $60,000.
This pattern repeats. The only benefit person B is getting here is a higher starting salary. He’s taking a huge loss from the initial investment in the education that could take decades to pay off!
If only there was a job that entailed me making microsoft paint pictures all day. I’d be rich!
yes i was person a. in 11 th grade i went to school till 12 noon then work on an OJT setting. i was making the 30,000. a year in highschool. no college debt for me. yes a great piont made with chart.
Glen - i dont believe that a degree vs no degree is the same as blue collar vs white collar. There are plenty of “dirty” jobs that require degrees and millions of “shirt and tie” jobs that are entry level dead end jobs. I come from blue collar roots, i work a blue collar job, and i make a very good salary. It might be enough for some people, but its not enough for me. I consider myself fortunate, but would never recommend my career and education path to anyone. You have a trade job. For me, an apprenticeship in a good trade is almost the same as a degree. Hell, in DE you have to put in almost as many hours under a master tradesmen to get licensed as you would in college anyways. Until the laws change there will continue to be well paying and in demand careers in the trades that having a degree is of very little use for getting. Something i have always known and have said before is that intelligence and education are not synomonous. Having a degree does not make you smart or any more qualified than someone without a degree. A degree gets you the interview, intelligence and character gets you the job.
My father placed very little value on education. Growing up lower middle class i was surrounded by blue collar working adults my whole life that were always quick to tell me why a degree wasnt worth it. Although i take great pride in my roots and working with my hand, i believe a lot of these arguments are simply based on pride and insecurity. I see this contantly at my current job. I got harrassed often for being back in school and often accused of being elitist. Granted, a lot of it is ball busting and said jokingly but the insecurities are plain to see when the old “just becuase you have book smarts doesnt mean your good at your job” comments come so quickly.
Let me do some completely bogus numbers just to illustrate.
I think its insane to make any attempt at rationlizing why not getting an education is better than getting one. I have a degree that i consider wasteful but i would never suggest to anyone that not getting a degree is a good thing. Its also rare to find someone with a degree trying to make that argument. Here is what it comes down to for me. Would anyone that has children let their child not go to college? I wouldnt. It wouldnt even be an option. Its plain bad parenting to me. We want to give our child every tool possible to be a sucessfull adult and have it easier than we did and a degree is the biggest tool we can give them. Yes its expensive. Yes, some people are lucky and find success without a degree. Yes, some people regret the time and money spent getting a degree. However, IMO, there is no good argument why getting not getting a degree is a good idea in this day and age with maybe the possible exception of a trade job. Any person will be better for it.
Im not sure where the stats and numbers are coming from, but the plain, honest truth is that a college graduate will make significant more money over his lifetime than a high school graduate. Period.
well put shawn. i also agree that a person with a degree will make more over his lifetime. hell i went to the emergency room for 1 hr had 1 small dose of antibotics and a nurse cut my ancle about 1 inch to relief pus and my bill was $1,600. i would have to work alot longer than hour to make this. my point is that most of your higher paying jobs require a degree of sorts. but my plumbing company grosses over 1/2 millon a year. not bad for 2 high school grads. lol. its in attitude, work habits and getting off ass every day and doing something that makes a worker of any job suceed. i see the young kids that rather stand around and get a 7 doolar an hour check rather than use a shovel all day and get lets say 14 an hour. cant figure out the math and lodgic in it. oh ya they are just lazy. lol
[quote=“logans_daddy, post:29, topic:2254”]
Im not sure where the stats and numbers are coming from, but the plain, honest truth is that a college graduate will make significant more money over his lifetime than a high school graduate. Period.[/quote]
Again, I beg to differ.
2008 census numbers. Long story short, grads 48k and non-grads 28k median.
Based on those numbers and assuming zero cost of living, 30k tuition and paying down 100% of your debt a year it would look like this for two people starting next year and for the next twenty years.
Year Non-Grad College Grad
2010 $28,000 -$30,000
2011 $56,000 -$60,000
2012 $84,000 -$90,000
2013 $112,000 -$120,000
2014 $140,000 -$72,000
2015 $168,000 -$24,000
2016 $196,000 $24,000
2017 $224,000 $72,000
2018 $252,000 $120,000
2019 $280,000 $168,000
2020 $308,000 $216,000
2021 $336,000 $264,000
2022 $364,000 $312,000
2023 $392,000 $360,000
2024 $420,000 $408,000
2025 $448,000 $456,000
2026 $476,000 $504,000
2027 $504,000 $552,000
2028 $532,000 $600,000
2029 $556,000 $648,000
The college grad doesn’t catch up to the non-grad for over fifteen years! And after 20 years, he’s not even $100k ahead! Not to sound argumentative, but this is the reality of the increasing cost of college. Twenty years ago, this was a no-brainer. But for someone who paid their own way through college, it’s not as cut and dry as you make it out to sound.
lol. its in attitude, work habits and getting off ass every day and doing something that makes a worker of any job suceed. i see the young kids that rather stand around and get a 7 doolar an hour check rather than use a shovel all day and get lets say 14 an hour. cant figure out the math and lodgic in it. oh ya they are just lazy. lol
thats a whole different conversation and i could not agree more. i think there is sometimes an arrogance associated with college that unfortunately can be seen quite often in this hobby. the kid in college that thinks because he took biology last semester he is the premier authority on all things in this hobby is annoying enough. When hes condescending towards an advanced hobbyiest that is “just a plumber, electrician, etc etc” that can run circles around him intellectually its just plain funny!
I respect intelligence. I respect education regardless of the source. Without these, a degree is a piece of paper that is nothing more than a proxy for your mommy and daddy’s bank account statement.
no offense RCA, but your taking complex statistical data and manipulating it with basic, linear math. It doesnt work that way.
A college grad will have more career advancement opportunites than a non college grad. There will be promotions open to a college grad that are not available to a non college grad. Simply put, a college grad will not only make more money to start but his/her salary will grow at a faster rate than a non-college grade. Also, a good salary for a non college graduate often comes at the expense of experience and longevity at a company which can also restrict opportunities.
The reality is this. Yes, college is expensive and it sucks starting out your career in debt. However, the differences in salary, salary appreciation, and advancement will outweigh these burdens IMO. My friends sister is 35 and still paying her college loans. Boo Hoo. She also made over $250,000 last year as a lawyer. My heart goes out to her ;D
Personally, i feel that a childs education should be a parents burden and should not even impact college graduates. I know this is a lofty ideal and is not always the case but i dont intend for my son to have to make a decision between going into debt or getting an education.
Agree to disagree! Haha
But don’t knock the math. It’s real, not abstract!
logans daddy, did you ever read the book “rich dad poor dad”?
It’s been so long since I read it, I can’t remember if he discussed this subject. The book itself is about the lessons the rich teach their children that the poor don’t.
The moral of the story is “go to school and work hard” is very, very bad advice to teach our youngsters.
But don't knock the math. It's real, not abstract!I wasnt knocking, but using a statistic like annual median salary and drawing conclusions based on linear math is simply not accurate. I dont have statistics to substantiate what im about to say, nor do i have the time or desire to find any but im willing to bet that not only do college grads have a higher starting salary but they also reach the median salary much faster than a non college grad. Taking a look at your numbers, imagine that the non college grad actually starts out at 19K and doesnt reach 28K for 10 years but a college grade starts out at 37K and reaches the median salary in 4 years. Much different picture now ;D My numbers are arbitrary of course, but im sure you get my point about the dangers of applying linear logic to complex systems.
logans daddy, did you ever read the book "rich dad poor dad"?nope
The moral of the story is "go to school and work hard" is very, very bad advice to teach our youngsters.Hmmm, I wont bite ;D Everyone has an opinion, and im sure there are interesting points in the book. Just like our math, this topic is very complex and there are a lot of legitmate opinions based on different factors. Like everything, there are few absolutes and this topic is no different. What works for one person might not work for another. For me, education is very important and ensuring my son gets an education is important to me. Its also important for me to make sure that my son appreciates the opportunites afforded him and to be a well rounded person. My belief in the importance of education does not mean i think this country's educational system is without flaws. Like i said, i dont think anyone should have to decide between accruing significant debt or getting an education. Unfortunately, its not likely to change any time sone so we just have to do the best we can.
I am one of those who worked and started a family before deciding to go to college. For me it worked out great because I love my job. I am still paying back my student loans, but I am earning about $25,000 more a year than I was before and more importantly I enjoy what I am doing. I am an entomologist with a BS degree. This means that I actually get to do the research and don’t have to worry about publishing, that is my supervisors job with the Phd. ;D
Me, I like the field work so going to grad school was not something I even considered. I know in a lot of science fields that getting the Phd is all about publishing your results. My supervisor spends a huge amount of time sitting in front of the computer analyzing data and writing it all up for publication. In his free time he gets to apply for grants so that he can have the money he needs to conduct his research. On the other hand I am the one who gets to go walking through the woods in all seasons looking for the beetles, checking traps, marking trees, ect… ;D
On the other hand I am the one who gets to go walking through the woods in all seasons looking for the beetles, checking traps, marking trees, ect....
See Glen? A degree and she gets to get dirty!! ;D j/k man!
[quote=“logans_daddy, post:33, topic:2254”]
no offense RCA, but your taking complex statistical data and manipulating it with basic, linear math. It doesnt work that way.
The reality is this. Yes, college is expensive and it sucks starting out your career in debt. However, the differences in salary, salary appreciation, and advancement will outweigh these burdens IMO. My friends sister is 35 and still paying her college loans. Boo Hoo. She also made over $250,000 last year as a lawyer. My heart goes out to her ;D[/quote]
Very true statement Shawn. I will paying back my loans for another 6-7 years ( I am quite a bit past 35), but my promotion potential keeps increasing every year also. I have been moving up the career ladder even faster than I thought I would. I fully expect to retire well ahead of where I would have been if I had just decided to forgo college all together. This is just my experience. I am sure that you can find many college grads that aren’t doing as well. There are so many variables, but I think for most people a college education makes good sense.
Well, I’m sure that you’re sure of your math, but another key that you should consider is living cost. In many cases young people that did not go to college end up being younger parents, wedded earlier, etc… So trying to compare earnings is a bit pointless. Now if you were to consider money remaining after expenses, I’d be interested in seeing your results.
Not much right now, check in the spring: