Ok… where do I begin… The thermometer first of all is digital. It isn’t one of those dinky $2 ones you stick on the glass and can never understand what it is trying to tell you. This one is suction cupped to the inside. I believe it is by zoo med.
The reason I really have the heater on the cycle is because it was made for 20+ gallons and all there is in it is 10 gallons, I believe it’s temp is off. I will have a better idea though when I actually fill it up. It is by elite or whatever I don’t have the packaging any more. It is pretty spiffy though. Now I have a fan on the light, just a room fan though, we will see how today goes.
As for the cycling… since there is a varying of opinions, I think the safest thing for me is just going to be to let it sit in my house and monitor the chemistry. The only thing that I may add while I’m home is a portion of the clean up crew so that they can kind of clean it a bit. I already plan on trying to convince my mom to keep it either in the dining room(which is never used) or the parlor (which only some people go in when they are on the phone). I don’t really think smell will be an issue, I find that the hotter the tank is the more nasty it smells, and we luckily just got brand new air conditioning so the tank might even make it up to my room, but that depends on if I can ask mom so I don’t have to lug it up the stairs.
I love this comparison, same camera too:
Before MH
After MH
LOTS of diatoms as you can see. Or at least that is what I am told by nano-reef. However I heard cyano gives off bubbles which is what is on my “diatoms”. Is this normal? Or should I see if my cycle has finished and get a piece of my CUC sooner than expected and get a cyano muncher?
West Tower? lol, I miss those views. I was in the East tower and you could see the bridge into NJ and the power plant in NJ. Ever watched a thunderstorm? During the whole year we had one thunderstorm and the clouds were too low and the rain too heavy to see anything. Ah, the good old days.
I suppose you have a good point about the heaters malfunctioning all the time, but what happens when it starts to malfunction and you have it on a timer. It heats up a good bit in the middle of the night when the timer is on causing warmer temperatures at night then the day which is unnatural and unless you’re checking the temp at 3am when the lights are off how are you ever going to find that it is malfunctioning. I suppose there are ups and downs to this. One of the big downsides for me would also be an extra bulky timer plugged into the surge strip. My tanks also seem to get a bit cold in the winter with out heaters even when the lights are on.
I would really force it to cycle if I were you vs just letting it sit. One thing that happens an awful lot of the time when people just let it sit and never force it to go into a real cycle is they get a significant cycle when they start to add fish. Nothing worse then waiting all the time trying to do things right and finding out you did nothing during that time period and killed your first fish anyway.
I tried to post all of this earlier, but IE crashed on me and I had other things going on a home I had to take care of:
Well we may have to agree to disagree on the shrimp. Aside from my own opinions I have also heard many speakers, and authors talk out against the use of starter fish. I think this is something from the hobbyist past that needs to be learned from and left in the past. I constantly put down some of our LFS that recommend people start there tanks with starter fish. It is cruel to put fish into a toxic environment. I also think the tank should be fishless during the first 3-4 weeks and during this time the hobbyist can take the time to carefully plan their stock list.
I personally think a lot of people run into problems with tanks that never properly cycled. Also part of a young maturing tank is the presence of algae. Once a tank as done it is original cycle you often see, and I believe should see in a healthy tank, a succession of algae’s just like when you add base rock to a mature tank.
I am sure if the table shrimp you used was not present the hair algae was still present.(If you disagree with this I would read the wiki article on Louis Pasteur.) If you hadn’t forced the hair algae to show its’ presence then it would have likely showed up later when you started to add more fish to the bio load. If the hair algae was hard to remove I wonder if you were still using tap, feeding too much lower quality dry food, or had too many animals too quick all of which are often the situation when people are first starting off with keeping marine tanks.
The diatoms are normal and too be suspected, I almost posted that you would probably see some, but thought I had said enough for the one post, lol.
You will often see diatoms, then brown algae, then green algae, and hopefully eventually see some healthy pretty corallines. You may personally also go through a stage where you can’t wait to have algae grow and may bet talked by some LFS into buying these expensive chemicals to help it grow. Later I have seen people go crazy over there water parameters such as buying the nicest test kits on the market for CA, MG, and strontium not for the health of the fish or corals, but just to make sure there coralline algae is in perfect conditions to grow. Some even buy new light bulbs at different color temperatures to help with growth. About 6-10 months later you are going to start posting about how annoying coralline algae is start looking at algae scrapers that cost over $60 and start considering buying animals that will eat coralline and rock so they can strip it clean off the glass. Or maybe you will be the exception because you read this first and did your research and just let things happen naturally.
Good I’m long winded, I need to get off the computer.
A progression of algae is nice, but in a tank that small a piece of table shrimp is way to much IMO… a pinch of flake food is plenty. And the 29 was using RO, and I didnt have any livestock other than a CUC for 2 months and then it was only a lawnmower blenny and a pygmy angel for another 2 months, which were fed frozen brine twice a week and lived on algae the rest of the time. On a good side that tank did provide me with a place to breed lettuce sea slugs and from the 2 adults I had 40 almost full grown ones that I sold over the course of 2 or 3 months.
As far as using a starter fish for cycling, have you ever been to a reef? The place where many juvinille damsels (as well as other small fish, including most blennies) grow up is in rocky tidal pools, where the temp, salinity and nutirients swing durastically from day to day… are you saying that these fish cant handle this? They have evolved to be able to deal with this in order to avoid predators, and the fluctuations in a cycling tank are NOTHING like those in a tide pool.
For temprature look on RC for some of the threads by GreenBean. He/She is currently doing research at a university on thermal tolerances of reef fish, and has found that keeping a steady temprature is actually worse for the fish because when a temprature swing does occour it takes much less to kill the fish. He/she claims that daily swings of 4-5 degrees should not be worried about at all because as long as they occour daily the fish are used to them. With fish that expierence a daily swing they are much more able to survive a wider swing than fish that are constantly held at a certian temprature. And for people that claim that 85 is to hot for a reef tank, have you ever been to a truly tropical reef and done any temprature recording? In Tobago we did some monitoring and registered consistant water tempratures in the high eightys (average 88) for one whole month out of the year, and Tobago is 11 degrees off the equator, which is a much colder climate than many of the corals we have in our tanks. We also registered swings between days that could range as much as 14 degrees from the daily high to the daily low. People who claim that reefs are very stable environments have a really hard time convincing me of this, because if you are ever there you can feel how you get warm and then cold patches of water the wash over the corals all day long. Personally I am not trying to make things grow as quickly as possible, I am trying to give them the best life possible, and which is a better life to you? Growing quickly and then dying due to a 2 degree swing above 78 when the heater malfunctions, or living your full life span at the noraml growth rate on the reef and not dying because of a mechanical problem?
ive read a lot of articles on this subject, and as i said in my previous post, i think a 4 degree window is what we should aim for. i dont believe in spending a lot
of money on high tech toys to keep my tank within 1 degree 24/7…however…if you think that you are optimizing the fish’s lifespan with large temperature swings i dont think you could be more wrong. the part
your missing with your real world temperature quotes is that those temperatures are taken at consistent depths. what depths? with the currents, shade cast by reef structure, and varying depths of water there are going to be pockets of varying temps. its not all 88 degrees! moreover, i dont think any of us have a tank that represents one region. we have to take into consideration that we might have livestock collected from over a dozen geographic locations in our one little tank. to quote one high temp from one reef is just silly. we need to provide an optimal temperature range for our fish. its one thing to have huge temeprature swings and say that your fish are fine, becuase im sure they are, but long term?
as far as your argument on starter fish, i dont know where to begin. im too surprised that a hobbyist with any substantial amount of experience would hold this opinion. to each his own i guess ;D
Phew lots of info! Its ok Jon I can be long winded too I am actually in the East now! I live in the west most of the time though. But man, lightning storms like the ones we have had here this summer have been AWESOME to see up on the 15th floor!
Maybe what I will do is get some fish food early and try it out while I’m home I may stop in and grab some before I leave. I think there was something else I wanted but I can’t quite think of it at the moment. But however my table fan seems to be doing the trick with the high temps.
As for the heater, I had it working for awhile and when I have it set to do 72 it stays at 82 and cuts off when it reaches that. So I hope that that stays the same.
I still have yet to get my mighty mite ro unit. I thought they said they shipped it. I hope it comes as well as my other stuff I’m waiting for. I had no clue I had the possibility of leaving this weekend, although it isn’t looking too good. I wanted to get my tank filled up but you know, my work mates brought up a good point, why fill it up when I’m going to dump some of it any ways while moving out? Duh! So I just want everything to get here… IN ONE PIECE lol!
Btw I went to the library on campus and they had that marine fish book you mention Jon! I went on ahead and picked it up along with some others to get some ideas and maybe read up while I’m waiting for stuff in the lab. lol
For the starter fish, would you like me to post pictures of the juvinille fish that live in the tidal pools? I have them from my last trip to belize. You dont see many of these same juvinille fish on the reef, only in tidal pools untill they reach a certian size where the eventually leave.
For temp, these readings were all taken at the same locations on the reef. There are monitoring stations that record constantly and transimit the data to the researchers. And this is not one location either… let me find the thread but im pretty sure that there were 4 or 5 differnt locations in different areas. Ok off to RC to try to do a search and hope the POS is working.
Huh, google search engine is better at finding RC threads than the RC engine. Ironic.
Here is what I was referring to
The discussion starts on page one, continues to page 2 and 3 and on.
Page 3 about 1/4 the way down is good and the graphs I was talking about are a little over 1/2 way down.
One is from Guam (south Pacific) and two are from the Carribean, and they both show huge fluctuations.
Ive read many similar articles, and i dont disagree about the large flucuations. the point im trying to make is that even when the temperatures are at the extremes, fish can migrate towards warmer/cooler spots. they dont have this luxury in many of our tanks. i think providing consistent temps with no more than a 3-4 degree swing from day to night is ideal.
ive pointed this out before, and i think this is another example, it can sometimes be a mistake to draw conclusions about this hobby based on soley on date provided by ocean/reef research. there are a LOT of factors at play in the home aquaria that are not an issue in the reef and vice versa.
i try not to draw conclusions from scientific articles based on oceanic/reef research. i prefer articles and data that based on aquarium conditions, althoug, ill be the first to admit that more times than not the conclusions and evidence are purely antecdotal.
The problem with articles on aquariums is that they dont need to be peer reviewed for accuracy, where as scientific publications do. I have read some pretty ludacris things in reef publications that are quite false, but made it to publishing just the same because people assume that the author knows what they are talking about. These people are just hobbyists too, and while they may have more expierence than me I would rather rely on science than someones opinon. And as far as organisims migrating out of temprature extremes, how many corals can move out of the way of a warm or cold current? Fish can, but many times will go where the food or shelter is, weather that is 2’ or 25’ deep (bit temp difference between the two).
That being said I think we at least agree that a 4 degree swing isnt going to hurt anything, were really just arguing about semantics (i think). When I said that I get a 4-5 degree swing that is because I run my heaters to kick on at 80, so the daily variance is anywhere from 80-85 (highest I have seen it go other than once). I guess what im arguing is 2 parts.
First, i think low eighty’s is the best average temp to keep a reef since a) that is the global average of all tempratures on all reefs and b) Every reef I have heard of will get at least up to the mid 80’s most days during the summer, so all critters should be adapted to those temps.
Second, I think that keeping a reef tank’s temprature stable (read within 2 degrees permanatley ie. heater kicks on at 78 chiller kicks on at 79 or 80) is more detremental to the overall survivability (not necessarily growth) since it is almost a guarantee that the temp will eventually reach higher than those ranges and thermal conditioning will mean those organisims are more prone to thermal shock than ones that expierence a daily swing.
Now I think we kind of agree on the 2nd part. I also agree that the reef conditions are not always the best for tanks (I personally dont want to try a 14 degree swing in a day), but I do feel that we have something to learn from them, at least as much, if not more so, than authors who have no scientific backround that preach theories like they are gospel.
And bugbage, Im sorry were rambling on in your thread. I’ll stop now.
let me make a point here. having a related degree does not make someone an expert, nor does publishing an article.
i think some “scientific” information is useful but we can run into problems when we try to apply data collected specifically from coral reefs(your temperature swing is a perfect example).
I dont have a degree in zoology or biology, but i do have a science degree. Regardless of the specific field, the first step is observation. I, personally, feel much more comfortable making changes to my system based upon my own observations or those form other passionate, sucessfull hobbyists than a scientific journal. I would be willing to be that most of the techonology that allow us to keep the organisms that we can today are a result of hobbyists and LFS owners and not oceanic experts. What we do as hobbyists is a world apart from what takes place on a coral reef. Its a simulation at best.
I think there may be some merit in what you say about an organism losing some adaptibility in a system where the temperatue is kept at severe constant.
Not saying a degree makes someone more creditable (just look at my advisor >:::… somehow she got a Phd), but I have to disagree about publishing something not making it more creditable. If you are a scientist and publish in a scientific journal you better have your facts straight otherwise you may just get fired. If you publish something that is known to be false you get chewed out about it… I know im going through the process right now with my thesis. Every single fact has to be correct to the best scientific knowladge otherwise people will jump all over you and nothing will be taken seriously.
No it’s ok! I unlike a lot of kids like learning and researching. And when it is dealing with a substantial amount of money that I have spent or will spend I’m going to listen to everything and weigh it all out. So please I don’t mind. I’m glad you guys did come to a consensus though that a 4 degree swing is ok because that is what it looks like will be happening from time to time.
Ok now I have another question. I just tested my water params. No ammonia, Nitrites went to zero which it was just .25 and I have been doing tests every other day. Nitrates are 5-10. However the pH just increased to 8.4. It was 8.2 but the test looks like 8.4! Is this dangerous? When it was 7.8 no one seemed to think it would matter so I imagine that this happens. If it is bad then what can I do to lower the pH?
i didnt say anything about an article being not true…i just said it doesnt make someone an expert ;D
bug - what are you using to test the ph? 8.3 is ideal, and again, just like temperature you should strive to maintain a consistent window. im not sure why your ph was so low before, but 8.2-8.4 is perfect. unlike temperature, ph seems to be pretty stable parameter. the only time i have an issue with my ph is as a result of dosing something or another. in the future you may want to purchase a ph meter. the are very affordable, more reliable, and in the long run cheaper than test strips. periodic calibration will ensure that your ph readings are accurate.
your ph should stabilize by itself, and if it doesnt i would be more prone to think it was your tests rather than the water.
No nitrites is a good thing, that means they are quickly being converted into nitrate.
8.4 isnt a bad pH either, in fact many peopel shoot for just that. If it goes much higher you can buy some pH buffer and use that or do a water change, but at the moment it wont kill anything.
Agreed… a large pH swing daily is bad. Im also guessing the 8.2-8.4 is just test kits being what they are. Mine hovers around 8.2 unless I dose calcium… I wish mine would be 8.4 so no worries.
Well when I found out it was 7.8 I was talking to some one on Nano-reef and they explained it like this:
heya bugbabe,
7.8 is no emergency, although it is on the lower end of the scale. its no biggie, my tank was also running at a low ph at right around 7.8 in the beginning. i believe that this is a result of the acids produced from the cycling process. some one else on here might be able to give you a better explanation of this reaction between decaying matter (aka cycling) the nitrification/dentrification process, and its production of acids. acids essentially are produced when decaying matter is converted, which causes acids to be produced. this can lower your ph. using a buffer to try and alter the ph is sort of a loosing battle, and quite frankly a pita. most ph buffers also have alk supplements included, so your more likely to raise the alk more than the ph its self. i had to learn this lesson the hard way! i was using kents dkh buffer to try and raise my ph to a more stable 8.2 (per the advice of my lfs). it wreaked havoc on my alk/ cal balance, and didnt really raise my ph or keep it stable. there are a few things that you can do to keep it more stable though with out the use of chemicals, more surface agitation will help expell excess c02 from the water, the use of a fuge set on an opposite light cycle from your main tank, and keeping you house well ventilated, if you have a lot of ambient co2 in your home this can affect the ph of your tank. if your just cycling though, i wouldnt stress too much, as i believe that this is just part of the process. best of luck to you.
Basically sometimes it might start low but later it will fan out. They have told me to shoot for 8.2 but if you guys shoot for 8.4 and you are in my area then that sounds good.
If you currently have a pH of 8.2 don’t mess with it. I would not add anything or dose anything. If you did a survey of all the tanks in DE I think the average would be 8.1. Some would be at 7.8 with some at 8.2 and a couple at 8.3/8.4 . A pH of 8.2 is a great number. As said earlier but maybe missed, a consistent number between 7.8 and 8.3 is more important then having the exact must have number.
Yes I understand that the pH I need to keep to a constant. Now onto another thing,
I made some DIY rock before I came here. I used rock salt to make it porous as well as for a mold. It has literally been sitting in water when I used to change every other day for about 8-9 weeks now. For the past week I have been replacing the water 2x every day. I mean I was gone a lot so the water didn’t get changed very often in the beginning, I think I want to bring up the temperature in the bin, would it be safe to use the heater from my tank? I have no other heater and I don’t particularly want to get another one. I’m starting to think that maybe I should just go get another 10lbs of live rock and re-cycle it that way. But I already spent the money on the supplies for the DIY rock and I’d like to use it.
I am actually in the East now! I live in the west most of the time though. But man, lightning storms like the ones we have had here this summer have been AWESOME to see up on the 15th floor!