Set up my very 1st QT tank with fish pics

[Gordonious]

Several things you said above are just wrong. Most of it though is you misunderstand the reason I made a post. Perhaps instead of just rolling your eyes and figuring I am trying to force a method on someone you to Craig could listen and learn some things.

[quote=“Cdangel0, post:17, topic:3126”]
When a truly informational post (and it was a good post as far as informaiton goes) is presented without a counter balance on opinion it can have the exact opposite effect we are hoping for. [/quote]
If you read my post you will not see, “OMG, you gotta try hypo-salinity, it is the only way to go.” I didn’t say anything even remotely close to that. I’m not trying to convert him and the world to the only way to do things, just to make a more informed hobbyist. Obviously where ever he had read or heard about having his tank go follow didn’t properly inform him that this alone as well as monitoring his animals wouldn’t guarantee success.

[quote=“Cdangel0, post:17, topic:3126”]
But likewise if he is practicing good husbandry and is taking care of the tank if it is not showing after 2 months the chances of it showing up later are very slim.[/quote]

Completely disagree with this statement. Most hobbyist will go through periods of seeing ich. Shit happens. Life gets busy. Name a single hobbyist who has performed rock solid consistent husbandry for years. Perhaps you should ask Lamboboy what caused his fish to be sick before and if he thinks it is impossible for that to ever happen again. Shawn made a post recently where he has seen ich several times the last couple of years.
Even if you were retired and had all the time in the world and did perform proper husbandry, equipment can fail, natural disasters can happen, electricity can be lost, and when it does the fish will likely get extremely stressed. In aquariums most of the time they don’t die as a direct result of a drop in oxygen, increase in Nitrates, or change in temp but die from secondary infections and so on because of the weakened immune system of the fish. Often times you will hear that, “after the power outage the fish seemed fine and I thought they were going to be fine, but then I started seeing white dots on my tang and one by one I lost my fish”.

[quote=“Cdangel0, post:17, topic:3126”]
QTing will aide in ensuring we are not putting sick fish in our DT where they may wipe out our prized fish.[/quote]
Have to underline aide. It helps in ensuring fish are ok, but doesn’t alone completely ensure it. Obviously a statement similar to this had our friend LamboBoy convinced that it wasn’t possible for ich to sneak through.

[quote=“Cdangel0, post:17, topic:3126”]
All I’m saying is that when we focus on the bad in the hobby - the “what-ifs” if you will. We run a risk of chasing people out of the hobby. [/quote]

Agreed, but there is a flip side to this as well, countless times when we used to meet at the old Newark library the more “advanced” hobbyist would talk about how corals get fresh water on them during rain or get dried up forever. “We worry too much about specific little things, corals are hardy”. Yes and no, corals in the wild which are under the same conditions they’ve been in for thousands of years 99% of the time can handle the occasional crap, but we don’t want to leave anyone thinking salinity really doesn’t matter for corals or that it is ok to leave the corals out of the tank for 12 hours at a time. I’m not trying to be doom and gloom all the time. I made threads recently showing pictures of some of my favorite corals to share.

[quote=“Cdangel0, post:17, topic:3126”]
A year from now some kid getting in to the hobby is going to read it because he did a google search for ich and he’s not going to have the benefit of history, or knowing us, or a support group to discuss it wih and he’s going to say “screw it” and pack it up and get out of the hobby.[/quote]
The last time we discussed QT in a thread I said the same thing and warned another forum member to be careful of his words for this reason, but seriously how many hits you think this thing is going to get on Google? Not like this page is going to get a million views. Honestly the people that only search forums for factual information to make a decision like this are lost anyways. We can’t delete ReefCentral, the thing is backed up too much. A lot worse crap is already out there.

[quote=“Cdangel0, post:17, topic:3126”]
Our comments and posts have a lasting effect on the hobby whether we realize it or not.[/quote]
Ha! The DRC website, the holy grail of reefkeeping advice, to be printed and sold at a later date. Doubtful! I agree we should to an extent we should watch what we say, but at the same time everything I said was factual. If you sugar coat everything and write every thread so it addresses every idiot who could ever read the thread and in anyway they could ever be mislead then you who have to type one mighty long thread. Seriously in a thread about salinity you should include that it isn’t just salinity that is important, but temperature as well and that temperature should be around 78F-82f, but it should be noted hear that it may be possible that it could be kept at 75F and there are even some sub-tropical species that do best in even cooler, and it should be noted that some reefs have been found to have an average temperature of 90F and it should be noted that you can’t NOTE everything so every moron who reads every thread couldn’t possibly read information and take it as a complete picture without checking any other source.

[quote=“Lambo Boy, post:19, topic:3126”]
I guess it’s like playing Russian roulette, sometimes it’s ok but sometimes it will kill you !![/quote]

True statement. However in my opinion the odds you’ll get burnt are a lot greater. Some people go by the school of thought that if you take care of your tank perfectly all the time nothing will ever go wrong.

[Cdangel0]

So when was the last time you didn’t know everything Jon?

[Gordonious]

[quote=“Cdangel0, post:22, topic:3126”]
So when was the last time you didn’t know everything Jon?[/quote]

Did I say something that offended you Craig?

[Cdangel0]

[quote=“Gordonious, post:23, topic:3126”]
Did I say something that offended you Craig? [/quote]

Oh hells no -I gave up the ability to be offended years ago ;D

I think you missed the meaning behind my original post. I can’t refute the science behind what you’re saying (except that leaving a tank fallow for 10 weeks will eliminate ich in that tank as it can’t live that long without a host). My issue was with the extreme tone of negativity in the message you’re sending.

To be honest you have a tendency to come across as a “doomsdayer” - I was merely trying to bring it to your attention while offering a seperate opinion to the OP.

I apologize to Lambo Boy for posting something completely off topic in his thread and will let the subject drop. We can discuss privately if you disagree with my assesment.

[Gordonious]

It’s all good.

[quote=“Cdangel0, post:24, topic:3126”]
I can’t refute the science behind what you’re saying (except that leaving a tank fallow for 10 weeks will eliminate ich in that tank as it can’t live that long without a host). [/quote]

Never said anything to the counter, was just stating that, “If you are trying to fully rid yourself of ich you’ll likely reintroduce it when you introduce those two fish.” Regardless I think he should leave it follow or the large population already present will attack even the healthiest fish.

[quote=“Cdangel0, post:24, topic:3126”]
My issue was with the extreme tone of negativity in the message you’re sending. [/quote] There is no tone at all in my message, just facts. A long time ago I stopped trying to sugar coat things and make death, disease, and parasites pleasant. Lol

Perhaps this will help. Here is in image of a happy , Cryptocaryon irritans. URL=http://joejaworski.wordpress.com/2007/09/28/the-marine-ich-epidemic/[/URL]

[Lambo_Boy]

Looks like a happy naked Clownfish hehe.

No need to move this discussion privately, I love reading it…

And I’m going to let it go fallow for 10 weeks.

[system]

Shawn made a post recently where he has seen ich several times the last couple of years.

Eh, two times actually but only one single fish(hippo tang) with one being right after introduction which was some nasty black thing resembling ich. Then other was a full blown outbreack of ich after introducing new fish. So, all in all, my hippo tank has had to sever outbreaks of ich(the black probably not ich) and each time she fully recovered with no intervention on my behalf. Also, in both cases there was no signs of ich with any fish in the tank and i have never once lost a fish to disease with the exception of newly introduced fish(usually bacterial or unknown and never ich). I have seen spots from time to time on the hippo tank but i dont think they were ich but im certainly not a pathologist.

Most hobbyist will go through periods of seeing ich. (Poop) happens. Life gets busy. Name a single hobbyist who has performed rock solid consistent husbandry for years.

I couldnt agree more with this statement. Even the most dedicated and conscientious of hobbyist will neglect their tank at some point for some reason.

equipment can fail, natural disasters can happen, electricity can be lost, and when it does the fish will likely get extremely stressed.

Again, couldnt agree more. Ive had this happen to me and have lost fish because of it although not because of disease. In a similar vein, as noted above, introduction of new fish will have the same effect. My hippo broke out in ich after introducing my harem of anthias(of all fish ;D). Ironically, when i introduced the two monster triggerfish she was fine! lol

To be honest you have a tendency to come across as a "doomsdayer"

I agree. Jon i think you can come across as negative at times especially when discussing topics like this.

Now to add my :TWOCENTS! lol Ive had the pleasure of knowing Jon for a very long time and him and I have debated this subject for probably the better part of 4-5 years. I would like to think at this point we have a mutual respect for one anothers opinions and have probably tweaked our own thoughts as a result of our discussions. While i agree that Jon can come off as negative i know without a doubt that its only because of his passion for this hobby and the animals. I also know that he doesnt mean to come off as negative in anyway but the forum format can be frustrating for even the best of us. Trust me, if you want to see how someone can be an a-hole regarding QT then go no further than RC. There are members that will say “if you dont QT you are an idiot. Im right, your wrong, go away!” and will offer nothing whatsoever to substantiate their beliefs or even consider the thoughts or success of other hobbyist that represent different ideas and methods. Jon would likely benefit from haviing Steph read his posts before posting ;D but i generally agree with his ideas while respecting his knowledge and passion. And i can say without a doubt that passion is what is coming out in Jon’s posts. I dont for a minute think he thinks he knows it all or is any way trying to do anything but help. This is a subject that Jon is both very knowledgeable and passionate about and its only passion that we are seeing. Something i wish more hobbyists shared.

Now with that said…

There is no tone at all in my message, just facts.

Oh come on Jon!! >LOL< Are you kidding us or yourself? A person would have to be blind and stupid to not see the “tone” in some of your posts!! I dont see it anymore because i know and like you personally, respect your opinions, and know that your “tone” is a result of your passions for the hobby and animals and your frustrations over irresponsible hobbyists. We are who we are and im not suggesting you change that im only pointing out that i can certainly understand how some people might see your posts as having a negative or preaching tone especially if they dont know you.

At the end of the day Jon is right. There is absolutely no justification for not QTing as a general practice period. If you can set up a QT tank and practice stringent QTing methods then do it. Im trying to find room to incoporate a fulltime QT tank in my existing fishroom now. Not because i have the goal of ridding ich from my DT but because i have been focused on more rare and difficult to keep fish over the last year or two. I think its important for me to build a stress free QT where i can monitor difficult fish for longer periods of time(2-3 months) to isolate and identify behaviors and dietary needs as well as ensuring a high rate of sucess when acclimating to my DT.

Now, to offer a counter method. One i have used and believed in for the better part of 5 years and one i have shared countless times in the past. I dont QT. With the exception of a tiny QT tank i set up briefly when i was first in the hobby for a brief period of time i have never QT’d a fish. I have also never lost a fish to disease(after introduction). I have never purchased any type of fish Rx or treated a fish for disease. With the possible exception(cant recall) of the first outbreak of my hippo i challenge anyone to find any post i have ever made about any of my fishes haveing or dying from a disease. While i dont feel the compulsion to share my failures publicly i would not lie and cover up the truth to strengthen my argument. I believe it is very difficult to eliminate every possible source of disease in a tank. I feel that good, consistent husbandry practices along with a fish’s immune system will go along way to preventing disease outbreak. I dont believe that a whole tank will go down because of one sick fish unless something is seriously, seriously wrong. However, i guarentee that anyone that loses an entire tank will swear up and down that absolutely nothing was wrong. Its often times these very people that will be motivated to QT and often become the doomsayers that Craig mentioned. Im not an expert by anymeans and im not a biologist however i emphatically believe and will say that if you lose an entire tank of fish because of the introduction of one sick fish then you did something wrong. Period. The tank was not as stable as you believed and the existing fish were not as healthy as you might have thought.

However, as Jon mentioned, if a tank experiences a stressful event(loss of power etc) and all fish become stressed and disease is present the effects can probably prove disasterous. I said i havent lost fish after introduction because of disease. What i meant is that ive lost several fish in the past within the first month or so to disease and unknown reasons. Probably the most common of which are bacterial infections(at least i assume they were) which presented itself as red lesions and erratic behavior before death. In every case where i lost a new fish to disease it has been in my display tank and has never effected an established fish.

I guess at this point in my experience i would say that QT in and of itself will not prevent fish dying from disease. I also feel that good husbandry is more important than QTing in the sense that regardless if you QT or not you WILL have problems without good husbandry. I wholeheartedly believe that like most things in life the best practice probably lies somewhere in the middle. We should QT. Period. However, we should also use good sense and not QT to the point of killing fish that would likely survive if not subjected to QT practices(hypo, meds, etc). Dont think so? Google royal grammas and hyposalinity. These fish do not survivie hypo there are people that will continute to kill them one after another with some bizarre belief that they are culling weak specimens and only the one that survives is fit to keep. Its disgusting. The fact is that there are some delicate fish that will not survive QT unless your QT is essentially a thriving, mature tank full of LR and LS.

[rhetorical quetions]Would anyone recommend QTing a mandarin? Why not? If you choose to buy a mandarin or similar fish and put it directly into your display does it negate any previous QTing measures implemented? If a fish is in QT, not showing outward signs of disease, but is clearly in decline will you keep it in QT until it dies? or will you put in the DT to give it every opportunity to recover? can you say positively that a fish that slowly declines and dies in QT without outward signs of disease would not thrive in a healthy DT?

There are very few absolutes in life and i feel that QTing practives arent one. I wont argue with the science behind some of the practices of QT. We should QT. Period. However, we need to make sure that our QT tanks are as ideal as possible in every way that we can and practice good sense when it comes to putting the health of our animals before science sometimes. If your royal gramma doesnt survive hypo and you learn that in general royal grammas do not survive hypo then dont adminster hypo or dont buy a gramma. Period.

Out of curiosity. Did anyone see a QT or hospital system at Atlantis? Im not implying in anyways that they do not QT i just dont recall it coming up or seeing anything to suggest that they do although i assume there is some procedure for introducing new fish.

Jon - out of curiosity. have you seen the guys that set up same systems QT tanks with inline UV steralizers? what do you think about this assuming the UV bulb is powerful enough for the flow rate? i think this is probably going to be the best way for me to implement a QT tank and im not 100% sold that this will work. do you think there are any other measures to implement a successfull QT in a shared volume system? micron filters? chemical filtration? etc?

i wonder if this beats my record for longest post ever? lol probably not!!

[system]

Just to add one of my own frustrations Saint:)

At the very least Jon speaks from his own experience and knowledge. Also, anyone that knows Jon will also know that he has enjoyed significant amount of success in this hobby. There are others, however, that have almost no experience or knowledge that has not ben cut and pasted. They are unable to provide a pic of their tank that does not have 1/2 a dozen pests and/or algae in it and can not keep anything alive other than the most basic of corals. These people often guage success in weeks and months and not years because their entire experience often is less than a year. Ironically, these are the same people that are the most vocal with their opinions. They will give you unsolicited advice/criticism on keeping difficult acros while they can barely keep montis and birdsnests alive. They are easy to spot because they are characterized by having the inablity to say they are wrong and rarely offer anything more than their opinions(IE wikipedias opinions). The point of a forum IMO is to discuss your ideas, right or wrong, about hobby related topics. Its not to google the topic, pass the results off as your ideology, and say your right everyone else is wrong. ALL OF US have google!!! You DO NOT need to google for us!!! If you dont have an opinion based on experience please save us the effort of having to read your regurgitated ramblings based on knowlege that you have “possessed” for all of 5 minutes before sharing it! I dont mean to say that anyone that shares links is doing this. Ken is the KING of links and i dont think for a minute he is practicing this behavior. I would be lost without his links to be honest! After seeing some of the stuff Ken digs up im convinced that Ken has access to a different internet internet than the rest of us. ;D

I only bring this up because i know this is a pet peeve of mine and one im pretty sure that Jon shares. We ask questions to get different opinions. Different opinions allow us to form our own opinions based on the knowledge and experiences of many people. We do not ask questions because we are incapable of google’ing or because we want someone to pass of the results of their google’ing skills as knowledge. If you have an opinion on the subject based on your experiences share it. If you know that your opinions might be controversial(my ideas about QT) but you have experience and success/failures that you want to share by all means share it. If you have researched a topic and feel that you have a substantial amount of knowledge on a subject that you might not have real experience with then share it. If you have no knowlege or experience whatsoever but instead a complusion to to be right and comment on everything then at least disclose the fact that thats what it is. While most of our members are aware of “that guy” that asked questions about something last week and is an expert on the very same subject next week not everyone does. Especially newer members. FWIW im not referring to anyone specifically but rather a type of poster that we have all expereinced over the years on various forums.

Ok. Rant is over! Now i know why you do it Jon!! That felt good! >LOL<

[Cdangel0]

God I hate posts I have to scroll to read.

Just kidding - good post(s) Shawn. Again I can’t disagree with anything stated. If I had room I would probably have a QT tank set-up. Of course if I had room I’d also have a frag tank.

My only concern was with a PERCEIVED negative undertone to the message being delivered with an attempt at enlightening someone that their very answer - given in the tone it was given - mat actually do more harm thenn good.

Perception is a funny thing - everyone sees it differently. I consider myself a funny guy - my ex-wife considers me an inconsiderate, lying, hypocritical, self-absorbs, indignant, arrogant pr!ck.

[moliken]

Perception is a funny thing - everyone sees it differently. I consider myself a funny guy - my ex-wife considers me an inconsiderate, lying, hypocritical, self-absorbs, indignant, arrogant pr!ck.
craig, wtf?? you used to be married to my ex dearest wife??

[system]

Perception is a funny thing - everyone sees it differently. I consider myself a funny guy - my ex-wife considers me an inconsiderate, lying, hypocritical, self-absorbs, indignant, arrogant pr!ck.

so funny but so true!

[Gordonious]

Thanks for much of what you said Shawn. Appreciate it.

The forum was DEAD slow the last several months. When Lamboboy posted informative thread to share information about his QT tank I wanted to make some comments specific for him based on the experience he has, the type of set up he is running, and everything else I know about his tank. The posts were made for him and I didn’t even expect anyone else to read it. Perhaps I should have just PMed him.
For this reason I am going to go back and delete many of the above posts. LamboBoy heard what I had to say, there are many more complete sources of information out there, and this will save the newby hobbyist from reading information that is negative. screw it, kids now adays are sheltered too much already. I believed what I said was factual based on my experience and education. I don’t think it’s pessimistic just factual.

WARNING THE BELOW MESSAGE ISN’T HAPPY
(Disclaimer: if you’re feeling a little blue today, thinking of leaving the hobby, or have more than two children and are having a mid life crises do not read the below text)
Perhaps I should add this to my signature line.

Sure everyone heard enough from me, but whatever. Also want to say I am writing the below to benefit LamboBoy who said he was still reading along. I believe Shawn alluded to what I am going to say, but I wanted to explain in more detail.

Shawn, “I dont believe that a whole tank will go down because of one sick fish unless something is seriously, seriously wrong.”
Many times “fish only” aquariums are maintained by novice aquarist and many people believe it is ok for these “fish only” aquarium to have 100ppm+ Nitrates. The typical hobbyist who keeps a “fish only” system is less worried about rock solid chemistry or keeping things in a narrow range and the fish become more and more tolerable to worse and worse chemistry as the hobbyist gets lazier over the months. Fish only systems are often maintained(or not maintained) with high phosphates, high nitrates, swinging pH, and swinging salinities far from natural conditions.

So back to the original comment by Shawn, “I dont believe that a whole tank will go down because of one sick fish unless something is seriously, seriously wrong.”
I’ve seen exactly that happen, not once, but repeatedly. Countless times I have heard people say they hadn’t added fish in over a year and everything was going so well, “then I bought a fish from so and so and it brought in disease that killed all my fish.” I’ve heard this about just about every LFS in the area.
Here is what happens most of the time. When the hobbyist first set up the tank they lost a couple of fish and eventually all that is left is well acclimated hardy animals. Over the months the Nitrates creep up, the salinity swings more and more and so does the pH. The hardy fish that are left adapt to this and survive. They likely developed immunity to whatever parasites were present at the start of all of this and no parasites are left. The fish at this part are stressed and not doing perfectly, but any symptoms occurred slowly over time and the hobbyist accepted all behavior and appearance to be normal.
Then a new fish is introduced. The conditions are so bad at this point the new fish goes downhill quickly and parasites take advantage of the weak fish. The fish in the tank are already very stressed by the conditions and have not had to fight of any parasites for a long period of time so they have lost any immunity they ever had.(kind of like why some shots and vaccines for humans have to be taken every couple of years…) Most of the fish parish, perhaps one straggler makes it and is brought in to an LFS.

Not only have I seen this happen to countless hobbyist who had no clue what they were doing, but also to hobbyist who were involved in keeping corals and in reef clubs. I’ve seen it happen to so called, “aquarium experts” aka “aquarium maintenance technicians” that supposedly know what they are doing.

On the flip side there is the other end of the spectrum. Many reef tanks are set up with healthy enough conditions that the hobbyist gets lucky enough not to have major issues.(that is for a period of time, nature always finds away, aka power outages, failed heaters, kids feeding PB&J, and other inevitable occurrences) Perhaps the ones that get lucky are those that have a better eye at the LFS and can tell by a fishes breathing rate, scale pattern, and length it’s been in the store how well it’s doing. Perhaps frequently adding fish with different strains of parasites keeps the fish from ever losing their immunity.(though I’m not sure throwing pests at your fish will ever be a measurable and accepted practice)
There is also the FISH ONLY, but not really FO systems. Both LogansDaddy and rbu1, another forum member, have what I would consider large systems and go to great lengths to make sure nothing is seriously wrong. While Shawn’s system has debatably, in his mind and others, gone from a “Fish Only” to a coral tank with a focus on fish it does house SPS and has fairly pristine chemistry. rbu1 keeps soft corals in his system, but they are background to the fish. rbu1 doses kalkwasser at night time to ensure a sharp drop in pH will not harm his fish(could practically care less about the boost in calcium). The point I’m trying to make is these two systems are a little different than the typical fish only aquarium.

I’m still reading the above.

[Gordonious]

[quote=“logans_daddy, post:27, topic:3126”]
We should QT. Period. However, we should also use good sense and not QT to the point of killing fish that would likely survive if not subjected to QT practices(hypo, meds, etc).[/quote]

Completely agree with what you are trying to say, but want to get away from using the abbreviate QT here. No one here questions that quarantine should be performed for all new animals, if the hobbyist is capable of doing so without harming the fish. What is questioned I believe is prophylactic treatment and not the practice of quarantining.(correct me if I am wrong here) Even if you would like to describe hyposalinity or other treatments as a type of or part of a hyposalinity treatment then QT isn’t in question at all, but specific part of it.

I also want to comment that I personally disagree with some of the QT procedures that are out there specifically ones stating that you should keep the fish in a small tank. Some say to keep them in a small tank specifically to stress the fish and help it show signs of parasites or disease. I don’t believe in or practice this.(glad to see Lamboboy is using a 55 not a 10g!) This is where I greatly disagree with at least one article out there.

When I treated the fish that are currently in my holding tanks every effort was made to keep pristine conditions. 3-4 times a day fresh water was added and the pH was adjusted. Water changes were performed every other day. Never did any of the fish go right into a prophylactic treatment until they were well acclimated to captivity and the tank they were in.(Based on my experience I knew they were doing alright and weren’t stressed simply because of the move and their current environments.)

“have you seen the guys that set up same systems QT tanks with inline UV steralizers? what do you think about this assuming the UV bulb is powerful enough for the flow rate? i think this is probably going to be the best way for me to implement a QT tank and im not 100% sold that this will work. do you think there are any other measures to implement a successful QT in a shared volume system? micron filters? chemical filtration? etc?”

I’ve heard of them, but haven’t been sold on any of them yet. There is information out there on what flow rate and what strength you need to kill off certain parasites, but if you read up on it and then start price shopping you’ll likely back down right away and decide to go another route. Furthermore, and I may be forgetting something, but UV sterilizers might possibly be able to keep some things from spreading from one tank to another, but this requires the parasite from passing through the UV sterilizer? Some might think if you triple the amount of UV sterilizers you might increase the odds you can get enough flow going through the tank that all of the parasites go through the sterilizer are some point. That is just increasing the odds though not guaranteeing success. With the animals you’re talking about Shawn and with all the effort you’ve put in your tanks, is “probably” good enough when there is a definite? I think you’ll find 3 properly sized units will cost you an arm and a leg and rival the size of your large tank.(doubt you’ll find room in your closet) Let me know if you’ve read anything different or have other ideas.(and no you’re not passing a fish through the UV sterilizer)
As far as the micron filters and chemical filtration I doubt it is going to happen in a tight space and I haven’t read on anything I would trust.
We were just talking about going the more simple route of reefkeeping in another thread. Fact is there is specific salinities and concentrations of copper which certain parasites cannot survive in for long. Of course every effort must be made to educate yourself about these procedures before hand and be prepared for what it will take to keep things rock solid and I don’t recommend doing prophylactic treatments to anyone who is new to the hobby.
(seriously Shawn for me, armed with a pH meter, refractometer, and time it was easy)

Still reading.

[system]

So back to the original comment by Shawn, "I dont believe that a whole tank will go down because of one sick fish unless something is seriously, seriously wrong." I’ve seen exactly that happen, not once, but repeatedly. Countless times I have heard people say they hadn’t added fish in over a year and everything was going so well, “then I bought a fish from so and so and it brought in disease that killed all my fish.” I’ve heard this about just about every LFS in the area. Over the months the Nitrates creep up, the salinity swings more and more and so does the pH.

Just to clarify Jon, i think we are saying the exact same thing. I consider

Nitrates creep up, the salinity swings more and more and so does the pH

to be seriously wrong! I couldnt agree more with your comment about the different husbandry practices that typically exist between FOWLR and Reef keepers. I know ive touched on this several times in the past and agree that the less than ideal conditions that "generally" exist within FOWLR are the root cause for these disasters for the reasons you mention.

While Shawn's system has debatably, in his mind and others, gone from a "Fish Only" to a coral tank with a focus on fish it does house SPS and has fairly pristine chemistry.

It wasnt really ever a FOWLR system although i thought it was going to be! lol Anyone that has seen it recently will tell you its a full blown SPS dominant reef with some “unusual” fish choices! lol

[Gordonious]

I know you knew Shawn, and didn’t want you to take it that I thought you didn’t. “Also want to say I am writing the below to benefit LamboBoy who said he was still reading along. I believe Shawn alluded to what I am going to say, but I wanted to explain in more detail.”

I know LamboBoy is kind of caught between trying to make his tank stable and at the same time respects people who could care less about massively high nitrates. I’m sure he all thinks we’re OCD reef geeks that make things more complicated then they need to be, but thought he might benifit since he was following along. Hopefully my negative tone didn’t scare him away and he gets to read it.

[quote=“logans_daddy, post:34, topic:3126”]
Anyone that has seen it recently will tell you[/quote]

Will have to take their word. I suppose the only way to invite myself over is to purchase a frag, but I’m broke, lol.

[Gordonious]

No one else liked this?

Here is in image of a happy , Cryptocaryon irritans. [URL=http://joejaworski.wordpress.com/2007/09/28/the-marine-ich-epidemic/](Source)[/URL] [IMG]http://www.gordonious.com/crypto2.jpg[/img]

I think he looks like a very warm and fuzzy character!

[system]

Will have to take their word. I suppose the only way to invite myself over is to purchase a frag, but I'm broke, lol.

Booo! ;D You know that your always invited and ill even throw in a freebie frag(just not a good one!!) >LOL<

[Gordonious]

Thought I typed this, but suppose I never posted:
Really really agree with your rant Shawn. I also can think of at least 4 people who fit your description of a mindless googler with little experience on the topic at hand.

“If you know that your opinions might be controversial(my ideas about QT) but you have experience and success/failures that you want to share by all means share it”

I think this is where you and Craig may disagree. Or perhaps where Craig misunderstood.

[quote=“Cdangel0, post:29, topic:3126”]
My only concern was with a PERCEIVED negative undertone to the message being delivered with an attempt at enlightening someone that their very answer - given in the tone it was given - mat actually do more harm thenn good.[/quote]

Where this negative talk started on the first page of this thread Craig made this comment, “Ever think that maybe it’s posts like these that scare the crap out of new hobbyist and they don’t even bother trying because it seems to be a futile effort.”

The thread this referred to was immediately followed by a thank you from LamboBoy and he seemed to benefit from it and appreciate it. I wasn’t attempting to write a complete article for the public to read jus t to help him.

Suppose at some point I am just going to have to stop posting on the forums all together. No matter what you say someone will be upset by it and someone will disagree with you. Trying to write posts that avoid doing so will just drive you insane and never work. Seems as if this is the route many of the speakers and writers go. Even those that now only post in one forum, and get paid to do so, only chime in with short little bits of factual information and only when no one else has chimed in first.

[system]

The only thing i would suggest Jon is that you cant really write a post with the expectation of only one person reading it. I know you didnt literally expect that but you have to know that after hitting the post button anyone and everyone can read your posts.

No matter what you say someone will be upset by it and someone will disagree with you. Trying to write posts that avoid doing so will just drive you insane and never work.

Eh, what can you do? >LOL< It makes for an interesting format to say the least ;D I think forums in general are what you make of them. I know ive learned a thing or two over the years about how, what, and when to say something. I dont think there is anything wrong with disagreeing with someone but i certainly feel your frustrations. While there are a handful of hobbyiest that have a lot to share and do so regularly it would seem that more times than not those that are most vocal are often least experienced.

[Lambo_Boy]

Sorry to change the subject to since you guys seems to know what you are talking about, I need more help…

Have anyone of you ever heard of Digitate Hydroids?
I have them in my fallow tank and was wondering:
1- Are they harmful to fish if they start to multiply like… a lot.
2- How to get rid of them or do they go away on their own.
3- Is there any inverts that eats these little buggers?

I’ve posted this subject in the RC forum and got mixed answers,
some say to leave it alone and they go away and some say that I have to
aggressively go after them by taking the LR out and putting them into RO water,
essentially killing the LR and the Hydroids.

Any opinions ???

I was feeding the fallow tank since I have 8 Serpent stars still in there and I know you have to “feed the rocks” sort to speak but that is also feeding these little Hydroids (I think) so I stopped feeding the fallow tank, Am I correct?