I think this would be an interesting experiment for the myth busters stuff we were talking about at the last meeting. A lot of people seem to think NSW is not safe to use, but I think if aquariums use it, it must be safe. I don’t live very far from the shore, I can be at Port Mahon in 10 minutes, so I would volunteer to collect water and maybe we could set up a little 10g tank with easy corals and a couple of fish and see how they do. I was thinking about doing this with the 15g qt. tank I have set up in the closet. Lets brainstorm what types of information we would want to collect and I am willing to give this a try if I can get someone to help with another light and some frag donations.
Love the idea. How about we do three small tanks? One with RODI, one with Tap water and one with NSW. I have plenty of xenia I could contribute to the experiment.
As nasty as it might seem, i would think that it would work just fine. Its funny your brought up paul and his tank because he also has garbage in his main DT including a rusty bicycle chain(at least he use to)! He also has keeps a Morish Idol that he hands feed and has had for a couple of years(the last time i checked). Definitely a man that thinks outside the box.
Does anyone know if there are any legal restrictions with collecting water? Im pretty sure its illegal to collect sand and just about any wildlife but i could be wrong. I just know from experience, that if your doing something wrong on the fishing beaches in DE you will get caught!! lol
Love the idea. How about we do three small tanks? One with RODI, one with Tap water and one with NSW.
Now that sir is an amazing idea!! Definitely a good opportunity to kill a couple of birds with one stone. Like Ellen mentioned, we would have to put some thought into our purpose and what we want to accomplish and by what means, but i think its definitely doable!
Ellen, you got pm!
let’s make sure the ONLY variable is the water.
[quote=“Gordonious, post:10, topic:2442”]
Something to keep in mind is the costs involved in making 4,000 gallons of SW using a synthetic salt. I would bet using natural sea water for an aquarium like that was more finically driven then motivation to do what is best for the animals. For many of use in DE it would prove cheaper to mix our salt as the scale is completely different. [/quote]
I think the animals in that reef display are some of the healthiest looking I have ever seen at an aquarium. So I am not so sure that it matters what the motivation was, the end result is what impressed me. I knew they used NSW but had forgotten about it until houndsbayman brought it up.
I am not so sure the effort it would take would be worth it in the end, but it would be a fun experiment either way.
let's make sure the ONLY variable is the water.
It wouldnt be much of an experiment otherwise! ;D
Question is would Ellen be willing to set up three tanks in her house that have identical set ups and would she be paying for all three or where would the funds come from? To be identical set ups she would need to replace all her bulbs or the bulb age could have a significant effect at the end of the experiment.
Before the start of the experiment it would probably be best if the club had both a proper way to measure PAR and Phosphates. If fish are present in the aquariums we should have the same species in each aquarium and they should be fed the same amounts. It would probably be best that these fish were acquired asap, so we can be sure they are not ill.
[quote=“Gordonious, post:28, topic:2442”]
Question is would Ellen be willing to set up three tanks in her house that have identical set ups and would she be paying for all three or where would the funds come from? To be identical set ups she would need to replace all her bulbs or the bulb age could have a significant effect at the end of the experiment.
Before the start of the experiment it would probably be best if the club had both a proper way to measure PAR and Phosphates. If fish are present in the aquariums we should have the same species in each aquarium and they should be fed the same amounts. It would probably be best that these fish were acquired asap, so we can be sure they are not ill. [/quote]
All great questions Jon.
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Would it be absolutely essential that all 3 tanks were in the same location? Could we have 3 different people participating? As long as all three tanks are the same except for the water I don’t think the location matters.
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We would use the same amount of LR, types and number of corals, 1-2 small hardy fish. I think soft corals would be easiest to use.
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We would have to come up with a SOP for caring for the tanks so that we can eliminate variables.
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We would need some donations of equipment and livestock. I am willing to use my 15g tank. I have a 2 bulb NO t-5 light over it right now. Maybe we want more light?
Chime in with your thoughts so we can make this experiment a reality.
Heres a few of my :TWOCENTS and questions, yes its long.
Ok, before we do any experiment(s) lets get our goals well defined.
What do we want to learn here?
In what time frame?
What are we testing for? What are our responses? (Nitrates? Phosphates? Coral growth? Ca? Alk? Mag?)
…for each of these, how are we measuring?
RO/DI vs. Tap
In what time frame?
Which are we topping off the NSW tank with?
Are we suggesting 1 tank w/ NSW, 2 (RO/DI vs Tap) tanks with ASW (artifical salt water)?
What are our factors? and their levels?
(I’ll suggest the answers)
Factor A - SW
…level 1 - Natural
…level 2 - Artificial
Factor B - Top off
…level 1 - RO/DI
…level 2 - Tap
What we are currently suggestion would end up somewhat of a lopsided experiment 2 datapoints with whatever we top off the NSW tank with (I’m guessing RO/DI) and one data point of the other (Tap).
I would suggest keeping RO/DI vs Tap out of this experiment and making it a separate experiment, or if included, fully include it.
Having all tanks in the same location will certainly reduce a lot of noise in the experiment.
How about who ever volunteers to keep a tank, keeps two? One of NSW one of ASW.
Best case we have equipment that will automate top off and waterchanges on the tanks, more automation means less human (variable) interference.
What type of pre-treatment to the NSW should we do? Let it ‘settle’ as Bill mentioned? Should it be mixed and heated prior to waterchanging on the tanks?
[quote=“Ento_Reefer, post:29, topic:2442”]
2. We would use the same amount of LR[/quote]
Amount helps with making the tanks alike, but I have some LR which I know are soaked in phosphates which they will release slowly into the tank. The result will be more algae which will compete for some resources such as space and light and well throw off the results. I would love to see a hair algae filled tank from tap water and ocean water at the end of the experiment, but some of the rock I have would grow hair algae on its own without predation.
[quote=“Ento_Reefer, post:29, topic:2442”]
Could we have 3 different people participating? As long as all three tanks are the same except for the water I don’t think the location matters.[/quote]
If I keep one in my basement and add a door when you walk down and keep the windows closed it will affect the gasses in the air which will affect the pH in the tank, dramatically, which will harm some of the corals and affect the fish. Suppose it depends on how picky you are.(I can get really picky)
[quote=“Ento_Reefer, post:29, topic:2442”]
I have a 2 bulb NO t-5 light over it right now. Maybe we want more light?[/quote]
That would be grow some palys and shrooms and a few other things. Wouldn’t be optimum conditions, but optimum isn’t necessarily what we are going for, consistency is much more important.
Couple other things to consider:
Not sure what you would define as the same types of corals, but why not use the same species exactly. Further more why not use clones? Something else to consider is how well corals store energy and how well they can slowly release this energy just to stay alive during rough times. If clones were handed out a month ahead of time and stored in other tanks… in one tank the coral could be growing and storing tons of energy at the same time, in another tank a clone could be withering away and losing tissue. In this situation growth records and even survival records would provide horrible data.
I really don’t know what the point is in examining tap water. The only ones arguing the use of tap water would also argue the world is flat. I would love to see us do something more useful then grow hair algae to prove something that has already been shown time after time. Fact is most tap water contains phosphates which grow algae which competes with corals and makes a tank less appealing.
I have to agree with Ian let’s just stick to two tanks. Furthermore consider this possibility. Use one light fixture. Ellen mentioned she had a T5 fixture and a 15g tank. Now place that fixture perpendicular to the tank and put another 15g tank next to it. True each tank has half as much light, but if you place the corals in the middle they will be fine. You wouldn’t have to use all new bulbs, for consistency within the experiment, like you would need to with two tanks.(though if it is possible to use new bulbs it would make the experiment easier to replicate in the future. If something went wrong, needed to be verified or if say someone could replicate it in NY, NJ, and FL…) If a bulb went out and needed to be replaced in the middle of an experiment, likely if you are using current bulbs, then just replace it and both tanks would experience the same thing. Also consider what I said before, consistency is more important than optimum conditions.
I agree being consistent is more important than optimum conditions. I also agree that most of us already know tap water doesn’t work so maybe you are right about it.
What I would like to gain from this experiment is to disprove the idea that NSW is somehow unsafe to use and will result in subpar or even bad results when used as the sole source of salt water for the tank. I believe this is a myth that has been passed down from hobbyist to hobbyist and is just false.
My hypothesis is that using NSW will provide equal or better growth rates and health of the corals as ASW when maintained under the same tank conditions.
Now all we have to do is agree on the other conditions if everyone agrees on my hypothesis.
The growth rates can be observed by photos and number and size of the coral. I agree we should use frags from the same corals so that they are all clones. I have plenty of xenia and some sps frags that I am willing to use. We could get much more complex Jon, but I don’t think we need to. I mean if you wanted to get technical we would have to dry out the corals at the end of the experiment and get the weights in order to see which ones really had more growth.
I really don’t think the difference between ph 8.2 and 8.0 is going to throw off the results all that much. I mean we are just trying to see if NSW from the delaware coast will grow corals on par with ASW.
I think each tank should have its own light source. It wouldn’t cost that much even if we had to buy the same exact light $40 at the most is what I paid brand new.
If we are going to do this, we need to have a forum, and a thread dedicated to it, we can t have it floating around general discussion
:TWOCENTS
The tanks have to be side by side for several reasons related to variables and also because it would be more feasible. Three tanks could be covered by the same light fixture if orientated perpendicularly to the fixture which would eliminate that variable.
Three tanks. One NSW topped off with preheated NSW. One tap/artificial salt topped off with tap/artificial. One rodi/artificial tapped off with rodi/artificial.
live rock is out. too much of a variable.
no fish. too much of a variable
no automation. to much of an unknown with calibration issues.
i for one am not convinced that tap water could not be used. if we decided on a rudimentary method to “filter” the NSW maybe the same method could be applied to the tap.
i would use clones like jon mentioned. at least three “easier” frags each from the same colony.
i woud build three identical racks so that each corals placement would be as similar as possible in relation to light source and flow.
I would add a biological source like prodibio biodigest to seed the tanks. It’s a method for emulating the biological component of live rock in a precise and controlled way. There is no need for a bioload because the theory we are testing is that “something†already exists in the water(tap, nsw) that would be detrimental to coral growth.
Coral food can be used to accelerate the process and provide for more realistic data. Again, the food should be administered in a broadcast manner that can be replicated and precisely dosed.
Precise top offs and waterchanges are needed.
The SG and temp of the artificial saltwater need to be as close as possible. The precision of the other parameters is less important as long as the test method is consistent because the trends will be the same.
our results would be three fold. we would track the data associated with water chemistry to verify if one source of water effected the stability of the water chemistry more than another. We would quantitize the growth of the corals by taking precise before and after mass measurements. Lastly, any other “less objective” results could be quantitized by visual documentation such as algae blooms or growth distortations
we do not have a laboratory and our tools will not be the most advanced. Our method and rigor is what is important as well as the amount of data collected and the statistics applied to the data. Our results need to be satisfactory for our target audience: hobbyist. We are not seeking publication in a scholarly journal.
If the collection site is clean enough and pathogens and pollutants are not a problem, fresh NSW is a great choice. Aside from the cost savings, the big advantage is the phyto and zooplankton coming in with the water. but they have a very short lifespan in a bucket. Storing extra NSW would be a problem. it can go sour in a very short while. but just pumping it in from a nearby source is perfect.
When Julian was here for the presentation, I do believe he said he has a couple tanks on his back porch, natural sun lit and fed by water pumped directly from the canal his place is on. I think any aqua culture place lucky enough to have pipeline access to NSW use it.
like these lucky guys
50,000 gallons a day to their tanks and ponds.
and many aquariums too. Like Monterey Bay Aquarium.
http://www.montereybayaquarium.org/
[quote=“Ento_Reefer, post:32, topic:2442”]
I agree being consistent is more important than optimum conditions. I also agree that most of us already know tap water doesn’t work so maybe you are right about it.
What I would like to gain from this experiment is to disprove the idea that NSW is somehow unsafe to use and will result in subpar or even bad results when used as the sole source of salt water for the tank. I believe this is a myth that has been passed down from hobbyist to hobbyist and is just false.
My hypothesis is that using NSW will provide equal or better growth rates and health of the corals as ASW when maintained under the same tank conditions.
Now all we have to do is agree on the other conditions if everyone agrees on my hypothesis.
The growth rates can be observed by photos and number and size of the coral. I agree we should use frags from the same corals so that they are all clones. I have plenty of xenia and some sps frags that I am willing to use. We could get much more complex Jon, but I don’t think we need to. I mean if you wanted to get technical we would have to dry out the corals at the end of the experiment and get the weights in order to see which ones really had more growth.
I really don’t think the difference between ph 8.2 and 8.0 is going to throw off the results all that much. I mean we are just trying to see if NSW from the delaware coast will grow corals on par with ASW.
I think each tank should have its own light source. It wouldn’t cost that much even if we had to buy the same exact light $40 at the most is what I paid brand new.[/quote]
I agree with your hypothesis and everything else you said, less the pH statement, I don’t know either way the effect of pH 8.0 vs 8.2, but let’s not throw it out the window just yet.
Let’s list all tank parameters and decide what we wish to keep constant and what we need to record.
SG - Do we match ASW to the SG of the NSW? or run ASW @ 1.025 and NSW @ what it comes out to?
pH - Do we match ASW to the pH of NSW? Or leave them as they come out?
[quote=“logans_daddy, post:34, topic:2442”]
:TWOCENTS
The tanks have to be side by side for several reasons related to variables and also because it would be more feasible. Three tanks could be covered by the same light fixture if orientated perpendicularly to the fixture which would eliminate that variable.
Three tanks. One NSW topped off with preheated NSW. One tap/artificial salt topped off with tap/artificial. One rodi/artificial tapped off with rodi/artificial.
live rock is out. too much of a variable.
no fish. too much of a variable
no automation. to much of an unknown with calibration issues.
i for one am not convinced that tap water could not be used. if we decided on a rudimentary method to “filter” the NSW maybe the same method could be applied to the tap.
i would use clones like jon mentioned. at least three “easier” frags each from the same colony.
i woud build three identical racks so that each corals placement would be as similar as possible in relation to light source and flow.
I would add a biological source like prodibio biodigest to seed the tanks. It’s a method for emulating the biological component of live rock in a precise and controlled way. There is no need for a bioload because the theory we are testing is that “something†already exists in the water(tap, nsw) that would be detrimental to coral growth.
Coral food can be used to accelerate the process and provide for more realistic data. Again, the food should be administered in a broadcast manner that can be replicated and precisely dosed.
Precise top offs and waterchanges are needed.
The SG and temp of the artificial saltwater need to be as close as possible. The precision of the other parameters is less important as long as the test method is consistent because the trends will be the same.
our results would be three fold. we would track the data associated with water chemistry to verify if one source of water effected the stability of the water chemistry more than another. We would quantitize the growth of the corals by taking precise before and after mass measurements. Lastly, any other “less objective” results could be quantitized by visual documentation such as algae blooms or growth distortations
we do not have a laboratory and our tools will not be the most advanced. Our method and rigor is what is important as well as the amount of data collected and the statistics applied to the data. Our results need to be satisfactory for our target audience: hobbyist. We are not seeking publication in a scholarly journal.[/quote]
I like the clones, racks, bio source, and temp ideas. SG lets discuss.
Automation, for ATO and waterchanging calibration is easily handled by float position, same concept as racks for corals.
I’m would like to see results of tap vs. ro/di as well, but I feel it is a separate experiment.
We may not have a laboratory, but we should certainly strive for the best possible experiment. The hobbyist is actually fairly knowledgeable. If we don’t strive for the best we might as well not do the experiment. Let’s layout the best possible experiment, then decide what we can actually do.
Another good point brought up by Ken, the storage of NSW.
Okay. I agree with everyones input thus far, and it has become clear to me that even though I brought up the subject I may not have time to be a part of this experiement. I agree we need to do things in a way that will make the data valid, but this will also put the time involved with maintaining the tanks on one person. Anyone have time to do this? I sure wish I did, but I just don’t.
I hope we can still figure out how to do this.
I have the space, and the time, but situationally im not really near any of the places to gain water… im 20 min north of WPenn. I have the RO and i have the TAP just need the NSW…
[quote=“Ento_Reefer, post:32, topic:2442”]
My hypothesis is that using NSW will provide equal or better growth rates and health of the corals as ASW when maintained under the same tank conditions.
Now all we have to do is agree on the other conditions if everyone agrees on my hypothesis.[/quote]
I think we’ll find problems with salt water collected in the state of Delware and the data will not support your hypothesis, but I agree it is what we should test. 
[quote=“logans_daddy, post:34, topic:2442”]
Lastly, any other “less objective” results could be quantitized by visual documentation such as algae blooms or growth distortations[/quote]
I was thinking about that last night. How about this for a way to help qunatify the amount of algae on glass. When the lights are off point an LED flash light through the glass and measure it’s par rating right after the water is added and weeks later. I REALLY think regardless if we find some sort of metric to keep track of the algea I think there should be areas of the glass that are never cleaned and photographs are taken.
If someone has a spare PC or lap top we could set up webcams to take images three times a day and record them. I may have three identical webcams.(had planned to use them to monitor my tanks, but in the name of science I could loan them out)
I’m not close enough to collect any NSW. It would be beneficial if we did some screen experiments with just testing parameters of NSW.
Is anyone close enough to collect NSW?