125gal crashish

DRC Archive General Saltwater Discussion
1

My 125gal has been up for a while now which i made the switch with Joe for my 90gal months ago…

I say crash-ISH because my fish are doing great my softies are fine for them most part but systematically my Hard corals are receding, loosing heads, and dying completely. My tank was doing great about 2 months ago and the growth i was getting from my kenya trees was amazing. NOTE: I havent changed anything nor added anything new at all. My reading are normal.

Suddenly my green monti looses color over a day then starts to lose polyps all over. After the week it dies I figure maybe my gf dumped fresh R/O water directly onto it to top off or something. :-? So I take it as a loss and say no big I’ll get another frag another day.

Another week goes by and no change.

Then I walk by my tank and realize the SAME thing is happening to my red monti! This is the BIG colony btw… SO i kinda freak out and check everything and all reads normal. I dont know what to do so I do a small water change thinking maybe it will help. It kinda did… the monti died after 2 weeks instead of one and actually tried to come back. Once again the rest of the tank is just fine.

I figure it was a fluke or maybe my 250watt MH were on too long per day. Which I have Actinics running for about 8hours total and MH for bout 6hours a day. I toned that down to 7 hours AC and 5MH just to see if it would help.

After 2 weeks of that everything is fine except I lost some heads on some zoos which i realized at night my hermits had a taste for the pink zoos and my white/pink zoos but not the others…

So I figure I’m good and keep to my scheduled maintenance on the tank. Then all hell breaks loose and I lose heads off my frogspawn colonies… BUT my frags are FINE. I did an emergency water-change and the tank stabilized a little bit. Pretty much the affected corals are not opening up all the way and some softies are looking a bit pale.

I dont know what was going on with my tank and on top of a bunch of other personal things goin on in my life I think I’m going to go with a fish-only tank with just some PCs or some HO lights but the MH are killin my utilities. I just cant afford to lose anymore corals financially and emotionally! <sounds crazy but some of you know how it is! haha>

I know this whole ordeal has something probably to do with my friends over-feeding my tank or just the tank being semi-new.

Stay-tuned for my coral sell…

2
I figure it was a fluke or maybe my 250watt MH were on too long per day. Which I have Actinics running for about 8hours total and MH for bout 6hours a day. I toned that down to 7 hours AC and 5MH just to see if it would help.

i’d bank your photo period is too short if i were you i’d have the actinics running 12 hours and the MH running 10 hours.

i run my lights 12 and a half hours a day, think of the reefs, they get sunlight 12-13 hours a day

just read about your utilities, im pretty sure its the lighting period that is affecting your tank, a heightened electric bill is cheaper than restocking lost frags.

check out some T5 fixtures, maybe a quick switch can help perhaps a 6 bulb T5

3

I fudged that up a bit prior to my tank crashin when the green monti went I had my MH on for 9 and ACs for 11hrs.

4

[quote=“SnEaKyPoLoCk, post:3, topic:2233”]
I fudged that up a bit prior to my tank crashin when the green monti went I had my MH on for 9 and ACs for 11hrs.[/quote]

i’d still say its under PAR (theres a pun there) maybe do 12 actinics and 8 MH you didnt say what kind of actinics PC/T5?

5

Hey ryan, what is your magnesium level? That is often the culprit with tissue separating from the skeleton.

BTW, the fish only is the best thing I’ve done in the hobby in a while. No more algae, no more dead corals, no more sweating the param’s. Go for it.

JOE

6

I don’t think it is your photoperiod. When I was running a MH + t-5 combo on my 39g I only ran my halide for 5-6 hours a day and the t-5’s for 9. I had great growth and colors. Lighting issues are not going to cause this kind of overnight reaction in corals. A lack of intensity or photoperiod would show up as a gradual decline in color and growth.

Sounds like it could have been an alk spike or drop. It is hard to say without knowing what your actual test results were. The fact that a water change seemed to help points towards water quality or chemistry.

Hope this helps some. Good luck with the fish only if decide to go this route.

7

This sounds alot like what I have been going through in the last year. my Montis have colored up then bleached about 3 times in a year… after working through just about every variable, I have to blame it on nutrient load in the tank…

Try doing some major water changes- 3 or 4 50% changes, cut back on your feeding and add a fuge with macro algea if you dont already have one… after that, stay on top of your 10-20% weekly changes, and take good care of your skimmer

best of luck and hang in there… its taken a long time, but my tank is finally coming back, Im sure yours will too with some persistence and hard work!

8

Oh, if you have a sand bed, try doing some gravel vacuuming when you do your changes- its amazing how much nutrients you can pull out this way

9

im sure i’ll get debated to hell about this but 10-20% weekly changes is too much unless you have 20 fish and unseeable rock due to corals.

from all the reading and advice i’ve had, i have learned that waiting longer and doing a tad bigger changes is better than small or large frequent changes.

i do 10% each month and have no problems, and yet i read about people who do 20% a week and have major problems, im sure its tank depending, look at it this way a 1gallon water change daily is not as good at 10 gallons monthly, the water simply does not saturate fast enough to actually remove enough to justify the constant changes and your removing alot of the benefitial bacteria with constant changes.

its to each his own in the end but i’d lean to less frequent 15% changes.

10
I don't think it is your photoperiod. When I was running a MH + t-5 combo on my 39g I only ran my halide for 5-6 hours a day and the t-5's for 9. I had great growth and colors

agreed. i run my SPS tank for a total photoperied of 8 hours and my mixed reef for 8 hrs T5 and 5 MH with great results. There might be a total of 12 hours of daylight near the equator, but its not equal intensity for 12 hours as it is in our tanks.

m sure i’ll get debated to hell about this but 10-20% weekly changes is too much unless you have 20 fish and unseeable rock due to corals.

from all the reading and advice i’ve had, i have learned that waiting longer and doing a tad bigger changes is better than small or large frequent changes.

i do 10% each month and have no problems, and yet i read about people who do 20% a week and have major problems, im sure its tank depending, look at it this way a 1gallon water change daily is not as good at 10 gallons monthly, the water simply does not saturate fast enough to actually remove enough to justify the constant changes and your removing alot of the benefitial bacteria with constant changes.

i really have to disagree. first off, from my understanding, very little bacteria is free swimming in the water so unless your siphoning the rock/sand when you do waterchanges the impact on beneficial bacteria should be minimal.

second, and this is just my opinion, smaller more frequent waterchanges are less disrupitve for your tank. if by “the water simply does not saturate fast enough” you mean the accumulation of NO3 and other bad stuff i agree with you. however, its also why i feel that large, infrequent water changes are worse. In example. If i had a tank that i did bi-monthly waterchanges for my NO3 levels could swing from say 30ppm to 5ppm almost instantly assuming that i start at 5ppm and build up to 30ppm before i do a larger waterchange that would reduce my NO3 back to 5ppm. Now, if i did smaller, more frequent waterchanges my levels would consistently stay between 5ppm - 10ppm without any large swings.

The day this hobby got EASY for me was the day i started doing small waterchanges every few days. Sometimes i have to do one every other day, sometimes i can get away with one every 5-7 days, i base the frequency on my water parameters. I test weekly and make adjustments accordingly. Granted, i might spend a little more money on salt than most people, but i also dont have the need to dose. My SPS grow like weeds and my Ca, Mg, and Alk stay rock solid with no dosing.

BTW Tim, there is defintiely some evidence that back up your thoughts. as a matter of fact, one of the hobby magazines did an artical this month on the very topic. however, IMO, when crunching the numbers i feel that the advantages are based mainly on efficiency and not necessarily stability. If done waterchanges both ways, and for me, there is a clear winner. However, the most important thing i feel that gets overlooked when doing waterchanges is the testing. We should do them based on the chemistry of our tank, not by a schedule. I think the whole “this percent this many times a week” is a blanket statement giving to new hobbyist that can have catastrophic results if no attention is paid to tank chemistry and basic husbandry.

11

sorry Sneaky, back on track!

I have to blame it on nutrient load in the tank...

Ive got to agree with Eric. Ive had the same experiences in the past and its almost always been nutrient related. We have to remember that our test kits are hobby grade and can have a very large margin of error. IMO, the important part of testing is not the number itself but the consistency of the number. If you constantly test 5ppm NO3 and your NO3 goes up to 15ppm you might not think it the problem, but if your NO3 levels were actually closer to 15ppm all along and now they are at 25ppm becuase of accuracy then you would start to see your SPS fade and STN/RTN.

The fact that you would see tempoerary stability after doing waterchanges convinces me even more that its a nutrient issue. It might be worth having your LFS or a buddy checking your NO3 and PO4 with there kits.

12

deff could be chem war with your softies killing for your hard corals i would run a lot of carbon to be safe.

13

[quote=“logans_daddy, post:10, topic:2233”]

I don't think it is your photoperiod. When I was running a MH + t-5 combo on my 39g I only ran my halide for 5-6 hours a day and the t-5's for 9. I had great growth and colors

agreed. i run my SPS tank for a total photoperied of 8 hours and my mixed reef for 8 hrs T5 and 5 MH with great results. There might be a total of 12 hours of daylight near the equator, but its not equal intensity for 12 hours as it is in our tanks.

m sure i’ll get debated to hell about this but 10-20% weekly changes is too much unless you have 20 fish and unseeable rock due to corals.

from all the reading and advice i’ve had, i have learned that waiting longer and doing a tad bigger changes is better than small or large frequent changes.

i do 10% each month and have no problems, and yet i read about people who do 20% a week and have major problems, im sure its tank depending, look at it this way a 1gallon water change daily is not as good at 10 gallons monthly, the water simply does not saturate fast enough to actually remove enough to justify the constant changes and your removing alot of the benefitial bacteria with constant changes.

i really have to disagree. first off, from my understanding, very little bacteria is free swimming in the water so unless your siphoning the rock/sand when you do waterchanges the impact on beneficial bacteria should be minimal.

second, and this is just my opinion, smaller more frequent waterchanges are less disrupitve for your tank. if by “the water simply does not saturate fast enough” you mean the accumulation of NO3 and other bad stuff i agree with you. however, its also why i feel that large, infrequent water changes are worse. In example. If i had a tank that i did bi-monthly waterchanges for my NO3 levels could swing from say 30ppm to 5ppm almost instantly assuming that i start at 5ppm and build up to 30ppm before i do a larger waterchange that would reduce my NO3 back to 5ppm. Now, if i did smaller, more frequent waterchanges my levels would consistently stay between 5ppm - 10ppm without any large swings.

The day this hobby got EASY for me was the day i started doing small waterchanges every few days. Sometimes i have to do one every other day, sometimes i can get away with one every 5-7 days, i base the frequency on my water parameters. I test weekly and make adjustments accordingly. Granted, i might spend a little more money on salt than most people, but i also dont have the need to dose. My SPS grow like weeds and my Ca, Mg, and Alk stay rock solid with no dosing.

BTW Tim, there is defintiely some evidence that back up your thoughts. as a matter of fact, one of the hobby magazines did an artical this month on the very topic. however, IMO, when crunching the numbers i feel that the advantages are based mainly on efficiency and not necessarily stability. If done waterchanges both ways, and for me, there is a clear winner. However, the most important thing i feel that gets overlooked when doing waterchanges is the testing. We should do them based on the chemistry of our tank, not by a schedule. I think the whole “this percent this many times a week” is a blanket statement giving to new hobbyist that can have catastrophic results if no attention is paid to tank chemistry and basic husbandry.[/quote]

very good points no arguments, everyone has their own way, i have a friend who is a marine biologist and he does 10% a month after $300,000 worth of college and thats reason enough for me LOL

but yes its about your specific tanks parameters and my schedule works for me.

14

the marine biologist in this apt is sleeping ( my better half jen) but we stand by the small weekly water changes. heck thats prob the old reason we were able to keep so much sps in the 75 with no skimmer and no sump/fuge. and i say often not only for n03 export but also to keep ionic ballance. but what do i know im a ford tech i can wake her if u like Saint:) any way im done with this HJack any one like my coral chemical war if theres a lot of softies in the tank!!!

15

I have tried both methods of water changing over my many years in the hobby and I have found that I have had the best success with small more frequent exchanges. I have been forced at times to stretch the length of time between water changes up to 4 weeks on my 95g and I can definitely say that things look much better when I am changing 20% every 7-14 days. JMHO.

16

I will side on the nutrient or perhaps toxic waste of a slime algae or efluent from an unbalanced sand bed. i get a slime on the sand in newer tanks, and sometimes it s hard to rid. but it produces toxic waste that bleaches the acros. so i scrub the coral rock and clean the sand. and water change. and things get better.

do you get any cyano on the sand or rock? most likely its some pathway of amonia in the water that is toxic to the corals. doesnt take much, just transient, but there. increase flow, bio filtering, yes bio balls, and cleaning.

Rule number one: always take care of the nitrogen cycle as quickly as possible. any intermediate stages of ammonia, or nitite are very toxic to corals. even in small amounts. seemingly at nearly undetectible levels. and slime algaes make something that bleaches and stunts corals.

Hows your filtration?

17

[quote=“kaptken, post:16, topic:2233”]
do you get any cyano on the sand or rock? most likely its some pathway of amonia in the water that is toxic to the corals. doesnt take much, just transient, but there. increase flow, bio filtering, yes bio balls, and cleaning. [/quote]

Actually I didnt think of the cyano in my fuge as being a problem but now that you brought it up that prolly was the cause and i dint think it would affect the rest of my tank… I should have at least shook up my fuge to get rid of some of it through my filtration…

Too add I have a Prof #2 Eheim cartridge, Wet/Dry Sump 20gal, and Tetra hang Filter rated for 60 gal…

Thx for all the input but goin Fish only regardless…

18

[quote=“SnEaKyPoLoCk, post:17, topic:2233”]

[quote=“kaptken, post:16, topic:2233”]
do you get any cyano on the sand or rock? most likely its some pathway of amonia in the water that is toxic to the corals. doesnt take much, just transient, but there. increase flow, bio filtering, yes bio balls, and cleaning. [/quote]

Actually I didnt think of the cyano in my fuge as being a problem but now that you brought it up that prolly was the cause and i dint think it would affect the rest of my tank… I should have at least shook up my fuge to get rid of some of it through my filtration…

Too add I have a Prof #2 Eheim cartridge, Wet/Dry Sump 20gal, and Tetra hang Filter rated for 60 gal…

Thx for all the input but goin Fish only regardless…[/quote]

no skimmer?

19

Montipora capricornis are pretty hardy. Zoanthids are… well extremely hardy. Something pretty bad is going on.
What is the TDS on your RO?

“I know this whole ordeal has something probably to do with my friends over-feeding my tank”

Kenya tree corals survive and thrive in very high nutrient systems. The fact that they were doing well doesn’t really point to a healthy tank, but a well fed tank. I would suggest having an LFS double check your Nitrate levels.(also have you checked the expiration your Nitrate test kit?) Just saw Shawn said the same thing, lol.

I have run tanks many times over with short photo periods with out major issues. Might slow growth, but I doubt it would be the only culprit of all those issues.

[quote=“TimH07, post:9, topic:2233”]
im sure i’ll get debated to hell about this but 10-20% weekly changes is too much unless you have 20 fish and unseeable rock due to corals.[/quote]

Really disagree with this.

[quote=“GreenFishyNHam09, post:12, topic:2233”]
deff could be chem war with your softies killing for your hard corals i would run a lot of carbon to be safe.[/quote]

Have to agree this could be part of the problem and was going to ask if he had fragged anything, but with the number of problems I would guess there is a bigger problem at hand.(or just multiple)

[quote=“TimH07, post:13, topic:2233”]
very good points no arguments, everyone has their own way, i have a friend who is a marine biologist and he does 10% a month after $300,000 worth of college and thats reason enough for me LOL[/quote]

How about a marine chemist who has spent his life working on marine tanks and literally wrote the book on Marine Chemistry… who does no water changes. I personally wouldn’t recommend it unless you have a massive fully mixed reef and can tell when your tank needs Iodine and Strontium, but looking at your corals…(I have to get that guy in to talk to the club soon)

I do and believe in small changes and as frequent of water changes as you can.

20

How clean is your RO water? We have pretty much narrowed it down to either a mystery toxin or high nutrient levels. Either of which could have come from your source water.