Debate: Feeding tangs

DRC Archive General Saltwater Discussion
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First off this is not an attack on Shawn or his post, but an attempt to clarify and get technical on something that seems to be repeated many times with what I would debate is not enough information to make any kind of conclusion. In a sense this topic is similar in my mind to the one person that speaks up and says they have a copper banded butterfly and thinks they are easy to keep should realize they are the exception to the rule and may not be doing a great service to anyone by speaking up against those who are saying they are hard to keep.

If we want to graduate this forum to a level beyond others and do myth busters and other things that are good for hobbyist, the animals, and natural reefs I think it is a good idea to discuss and examine topics such as this one.

I could debate this topic all day, but as it stands I am a firm believer in the diet I feed my tang and I have never personally had ill effects on my chemistry because of it. I also had a large variety of clients, with a large variety of tangs and aquariums use a variety of SeaVeggies without any significant increase in pest algae, bacteria, or other unsightly items.(nor a dramatic increase in skimmate produced, or required filter media or water changes)

I’ve seen probably close to hundreds of malformed tangs either at clients while with my former employer or tangs brought back to LFS from customers. 99% of the time I can tell a tang which has been kept in captivity for a year or more and is then returned to an LFS. Often times they get to the point where they not only have shorter fins than normal, but they plain out look ugly with just stubby little fins and other problems such as lateral line. I’ve seen many where their lips receded from their mouths showing teeth. I’m talking ugly sick fish.

It may be true that feeding these foods is not required all of the time. But seriously who has identified to species every algae in their tank? Who now even remembers what islands the rocks in your tank were collected from? How many of us strive to reach an algae free aquarium and who would stop short of it thinking, oh I don’t want my algae diversity to weaken for my tang, better let that algae overgrow Joe the Coral…

When discussing on a forum you have to also consider the masses which may look up experienced reefers typing their opinions. They may not realize the difference between their cyano filled nano vs the experienced reefers mature 200+g system which(this is important) contains a refugium.(which is a refuge from not only predation on small crustaceans desired by mandarins, but a refuge for algae from grazing herbivores)

One question I would have Shawn is what you have experience with. I seem to recall someone telling me you had nutrient problems in the past while you were feeding nori and any time you discuss the topic you mention “nori”. I agree that I wouldn’t personally put a product designed for humans in my tank.(especially one with foreign writing on it I can’t even read) Have you tried Porphyra yezoensis, Palmaria palmate, or Porphyra umbilicalis that were specifically packaged for the aquarium industry?(link)

Regarding the foods you mentioned specifically, “spirulana”, and the vitamins, I think these are great and should be added, but I am not sure they are enough alone. I witnessed tangs suffer after being on a strict diet of only San Francisco bay frozen multipack saltwater cubes which contains marine cuisine, emerald entree, squid, and omega-3 enriched brine shrimp. While this contains emerald entrée which contains spirulina and other vitamins and stuff it was not enough for these tangs. (note I don’t know how much of each ingredient is in the food and do not know if a lack of total food was a contributor to the issue as well)

This is not an extremely well thought out or researched paper written here just some thoughts. Heck this is a forum, if I wanted to finish a scientific paper I’d be submitting it elsewhere. That being said, shoot some holes in my arguments above and let’s hash this thing out.

slap-stick

What are your opinions on this subject?

BRING IT ON!

Side note: I had always thought Emerald entrée was marketed as a good food for herbivores. Check out the first 4 ingredients: Artemia Franciscana, mysis, krill, and plankton??? (note this manufacturer is not required to put their ingredients in order by abundance.)

abcd for listening.

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are you serious with this? ;D

why not start a debate thread about all the things people do “just because” and they have no idea why they do them with the exception that the were told to do it!!

I seem to recall someone telling me you had nutrient problems in the past while you were feeding nori and any time you discuss the topic you mention “nori”.
I seem to recall that you are wrong ;D As i said in my post i havent used seaweed since i was a newb. I bought a bag of the Sprung Veggies "just because" someone told me i should! It would get ripped off everytime and, yes, i believe that it contributed to high nutrient levels. Unless you recall someone telling you this 4 or 5 years ago when it happened then you are mistaken. I have owned a grand total of 5 tangs in my life. My first was a petco powder brown that i should have never bought and was a true newbie mistake. The second was a kole tang that i had for ever a year and gave to a fellow DRC member when i moved my tank several years ago. The third was my yellow tang that i had for probably 3-4 years and lost in a tank crash that i believe i shared on this site. The fourth was my regal tang that i bought from ECA the summer before last and is an ideal picture of health. The very same tang that came down with the nastiest case of ich, that i shared with this post, and recovered 100% with no medicine, no QT, or anything else other than good husbandry. The very same tang enjoying life in my 265g right now without seaweed in its diet although it does have almost 300lbs of LR to graze on.

i dont have a degree in biology(only because i was smart enough to get a degree in something more challenging!! >LOL<) j/k and i have no desire to search the internet to cut and paste articles. im offering nothing more than my experience and anecdotal evidence. the evidence i offer is my regal tang that is healthy without a supplemental diet of seaweed. would she be healthier if i fed seaweed? i dont know. i asked her but she didnt answer me and my doctor is unsure as to how to go about performing a physical. as soon as she learns to talk or my doctor learns how to perform a thorough physical i will be sure to post my results. until then i strive to provide the very best care for my fish. if i thought providing seaweed would benefit my tang i would. as it stands i dont. your experience as a maintenance tech or LFS employee doesnt mean much to me. its not because i dont respect your opinions or your experience. its because you have now way of knowing all the other factors that could affect the fish’s health for better or worse. i have provided care for my tang for almost two years. i can only offer anecdotal evidence of course but its enough for me for the time being. if i feel that i am wrong and i change my mind i will be the first to admit it. just like our QT discussion. i still dont QT and i still havent experienced ill effects from not doing so. if i lose an entire tank full of fish due to disease then you will be the first to know and i will have no problems admitting that i am wrong and i made a huge mistake. my opinions are just that. opinions. i dont distrubute them as the gospel. they often change and im often wrong. this wont be the first time and likely not the last.

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[quote=“logans_daddy, post:2, topic:2938”]
are you serious with this?[/quote]

You bet. :smiley:

[quote=“logans_daddy, post:2, topic:2938”]
if i thought providing seaweed would benefit my tang i would.[/quote]

Why feed “spirulana”, and the vitamins? Just because you were told to? What have you ever heard that said seaweed would not benefit your tang? I could provide countless links stating a diet such as this would benefit tangs.(of course the top links on a google search would be either people on forums or hobby sites just repeating information, or people selling things, but there is scientific documentation as well) All one has to do is to watch a tang in the wild for 30 seconds to figure out what and how much they eat naturally. To think your tank can provide anything close to natural as far as diversity and quantity? Must have a messy tank. :wink:

[quote=“logans_daddy, post:2, topic:2938”]
because you have now way of knowing all the other factors that could affect the fish’s health for better or worse[/quote]

Granted many of the fish brought to LFS I was unable to see the tanks they came from, but any time I had a chance to speak with these people I never found one that fed a proper diet and still had a sickly looking tang. But wait my experience as a maintenance tech is invalid because I have no way of knowing all the other factors that could affect the fish’s health? All the factors no, none of us do it is the most complex environment on the planet, but I knew those tanks VERY well. Many times over 20 other fish in the tank or more would have seemingly perfect health, but the tangs would show VERY obvious deformities. My observations were just observations, but I have seen a LOT of different tangs.

It is up to you what you put in your tank and feed your fish. It just seems like you recommend people do not feed any algae to their tangs. You may not mean to say this, but that is seem how it comes across.

QT discussion is for another thread another time, but doesn’t discredit my opinions on this topic.

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I don’t add seaweed to my tank either and my Purple Tang is faaaat and happy.

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It just seems like you recommend people do not feed any algae to their tangs.
really? can you quote a sentence in context that gave you this impression? does anyone else feel that i was recommending to not feed tangs seaweed?
To think your tank can provide anything close to natural as far as diversity and quantity?
again, can you please show me where i said this ???
What have you ever heard that said seaweed would not benefit your tang? I could provide countless links stating a diet such as this would benefit tangs.
again, did i say this ??? i can quote i did say this:
Of course im not saying that seaweed is bad
and this:
some of the fish food seaweed choices are much more nutritional
and this:
would she be healthier if i fed seaweed? i dont know
Why feed “spirulana”, and the vitamins? Just because you were told to?
uh....no. i feed spirulana because i do know that
watch a tang in the wild for 30 seconds to figure out what and how much they eat naturally.
im pretty sure i put a BIG emphasis on the fact that i feed a diet HEAVY in green foods(AKA algae!!). I know that a rich, diversified, plant/algea based diet is important for tangs! Not once did i say it wasnt. I simply said that, in my experience, feeding large, messy, strips of seaweed is unnecessary. In my experience, you can keep a tang healthy with lots of live rock, a diet rich in plant/algea matter, and without seaweed. I supplement vitamins and minerals because there is hundreds of years of data to suggest that defiencies in such things can severly affect the health of all animals. furthermore, to be perfectly honest, ive not once had anyone ever recommend supplemting food with a vit/min complex. it was something that seemed obvious to me and something i decided to do on my own although i had heard from people who touted the effects of using selcon. i dont think its a very popular practice in the hobby as seen by the limited number of products available. Brightwell has several but almost all of them are recommended for all reef fauna and to be dosed directly to the water. Very few products are design to enrich and supplement food directly which i think is important. I take a mutil vitamin everyday and so do my fishes!! ;D
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OK Boy is this getting interesteing… I would like to start another heated discussion Jon about QT…Do you want me to start another thread?

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[quote=“Cdangel0, post:4, topic:2938”]
I don’t add algae to my tank either and my Purple Tang is faaaat and happy.[/quote]

Just curious how long have your tang Craig? Most of the effects I have seen take a long time to occur.

Shawn it seems I missed your point if it was not to downplay the importance of feeding algae. I suppose if you think specifically it is nory that is not necessary well what besides “spirulana” do you feed?

[quote=“logans_daddy, post:5, topic:2938”]

To think your tank can provide anything close to natural as far as diversity and quantity?
again, can you please show me where i said this ???[/quote] Shawn I had thought you were huge into providing a natural healthy environment to your fish. Not so? Sorry for making this assumption. Swore I heard you say at some point you were in to keeping animals in as natural as possible environments. You don’t think you are anywhere close to providing a natural food source for your animal and this is ok? Confused here.

What algae do you feed your Tang Shawn?

I am not at all arguing the importance of vitamins and supplements.

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[quote=“Cdangel0, post:4, topic:2938”]
I don’t add seaweed to my tank either and my Purple Tang is faaaat and happy.[/quote]

I add nori on occasion as a treat, but the staple diet is, was, has been frozen mysis and pellets. I’ve had up to four tangs in the tank, currently only one. The one remaining is around six years old and shows no signs of deformation/HLLE etc…

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[quote=“rbu1, post:6, topic:2938”]
I would like to start another heated discussion Jon about QT…Do you want me to start another thread?[/quote]

Feel free. Not sure I have enough time to debate it, but you are welcome to start a thread and I am sure others will chime in as well. I thought you were convinced when you lost hundreds of dollars worth of fish.

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[quote=“Jocephus, post:8, topic:2938”]
I add nori on occasion as a treat, but the staple diet is, was, has been frozen mysis and pellets. I’ve had up to four tangs in the tank, currently only one. The one remaining is around six years old and shows no signs of deformation/HLLE etc…[/quote]

Just curious, could you post a full tank shot of what your tank typically looks like.(what is there to naturally graze on?)

[quote=“Jocephus, post:1, topic:2585”]
Anyone have a few of these they would be willing to part with? I am looking for something to compete with my aptasia farm, with a bit more color.[/quote]
Would you describe your tank as a high nutrient tank with lots of algae to graze on? What type of corals are actively growing in the tank? What size tank? Do you run a fuge? Just trying to get a more complete picture of what is available to your tangs.

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[quote=“Gordonious, post:7, topic:2938”]
Just curious how long have your tang Craig? Most of the effects I have seen take a long time to occur. [/quote]

Probably close to 2 years or so now. Time gets little fuzzy for me after a week so it’s just an estimate.

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Shawn I had thought you were huge into providing a natural healthy environment to your fish. Not so? Sorry for making this assumption. Swore I heard you say at some point you were in to keeping animals in as natural as possible environments. You don’t think you are anywhere close to providing a natural food source for your animal and this is ok? Confused here.

sorry. didnt meant to confuse you! your right. i do believe this and strive for it. does that mean that i think i am anywhere close to emulating the hundreds of miles of ocean and reef with its associated microfauna that make up the natural diet of surgeonfish? uh…no!

is this really a conflict of statements to you?

this is ok?
probably not. do i have a 265g tank with only one tang in it? yes. have i probably posted dozens of threads related to the conflict and guilt i have about particpating in this hobby i enjoy so much? yep. im surprised you dont recall so you enjoy total recall with everything else ive every said :P
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[quote=“Gordonious, post:10, topic:2938”]

[quote=“Jocephus, post:8, topic:2938”]
I add nori on occasion as a treat, but the staple diet is, was, has been frozen mysis and pellets. I’ve had up to four tangs in the tank, currently only one. The one remaining is around six years old and shows no signs of deformation/HLLE etc…[/quote]

Just curious, could you post a full tank shot of what your tank typically looks like.(what is there to naturally graze on?)

[quote=“Jocephus, post:1, topic:2585”]
Anyone have a few of these they would be willing to part with? I am looking for something to compete with my aptasia farm, with a bit more color.[/quote]
Would you describe your tank as a high nutrient tank with lots of algae to graze on? What type of corals are actively growing in the tank? What size tank? Do you run a fuge? Just trying to get a more complete picture of what is available to your tangs. [/quote]

No pics in a while, but it is a FOWLR 90 gallon tank that houses the tang, a clown trigger, a maroon clown, a princess parrotfish and a pajama cardinal. Here are a couple of old shots:

And the 65 it was in previously:

And the 125 it was in prior to that:

And the 55 it was in prior to that:

And another:

I don’t run a fuge. All that aside, my tang eats pellets and mysis shrimp and is fine. If your implication is that maybe the tang is feeding on aiptasia or majano anemones, I’m pretty sure that you are mistaken. Can you post of a pic of any of your tangs?

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Nice shots Joe! Did I miss something or is this a DRC first? I don’t remember ever seeing FTS of any of your tanks. In your current FOWLR do you bleach the coral skeletons to keep them clean or are they just new additions? If you bleach how quickly do they get covered in what sort of algae?

At least one good thing came out of this thread I got to see Joe’s tanks! I’ll try to post some pics of my tank or a video sometime in the next week. No time tonight, Lost is on in less then 30minutes.

Joe I wasn’t suggestion your tang was eating anemones it just I know that pest anemones grow quickly in and environment that is high nutrients. I often picture a tank full of pest anemones full of hair algae as well. Was just curious if there was a variety of natural veggies present for the tang. I also thought for some reason that you had a lot more rock in a much larger tank, seems I was mistaken there. Just trying to put a finger on the type of environment it lived in which would dictate to a degree how much algae would be needed.

“i do believe this and strive for it.”

Shawn, that is exactly what I wanted to hear you say and what I believed you were behind. I am confused though why you wouldn’t add more algae besides just “spirulana”. Are their other greens you add? Or do you just believe there is enough present in the tank itself?

I know you are picky about the type of frozen food you feed. I know I’ve heard you fed a variety of foods in the past and went out of your way to add vitamins and other supplements. I just do not understand why you stop short there. Your experience with nutrients from SeaVeggies was when you were just getting in the hobby? Perhaps it was due to other issues you were not aware of yet or the quantity you were feeding was way too much. The amount you would need to feed for one tang would not spike the chemistry in a 265g tank. Also the food made by TLF is all natural and not processed for human consumption, so no concerns now. Just don’t understand why you wouldn’t feed your tank a random treat at least.

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Shawn, that is exactly what I wanted to hear you say and what I believed you were behind. I am confused though why you wouldn’t add more algae besides just “spirulana”. Are their other greens you add? Or do you just believe there is enough present in the tank itself?

no. there are multiple agleas and other greens in the food i feed besides spirulina. i also regularly feed hikari mega marine algea. i think these foods coupled with the amount of microfauna in a tank my size and the vitamins and minerals are more than enough. im not against feeding seaweed. i just dont like the delivery system!!

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 Not sure on the debate aspect but in the last 6 years I've purchased 2 tangs and was given one. I purchased a 4 inch blonde naso from Mike at Newark Tropical s when he was at his first location by the old jumbo sports about 5 years ago maybe 6, I purchased a small purple tang from Kevin at just fish at least 5 years ago I can even really remember the date and I was given a larger hippo about 4 years ago but the hippo doesn't count was already at least 4 years old when I got him.  OK that being said on a good day they might get a piece of romaine lettuce but they usually get flake food  or frozen food , (mysis  or DIY) . The hippo has pasted but was just last year was decent size and figured just old no fish lasts forever and was about 8 inches long when he died. The naso is about 6-7 inches and with inch long streamers and the purple tang is the size of a baseball when he flairs his fins.  I know it's common practice to feed them algae or seaweed or something along those lines but in my case not doing that works. All have great color and are very active. They do peck at the rocks and what ever in the tank and get fed every other day by me. 

Not taking a side but just cause the magazines preach it doesn't mean it works or doesn't work for everyone else .
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[quote=“Gordonious, post:9, topic:2938”]

[quote=“rbu1, post:6, topic:2938”]
I would like to start another heated discussion Jon about QT…Do you want me to start another thread?[/quote]

Feel free. Not sure I have enough time to debate it, but you are welcome to start a thread and I am sure others will chime in as well. I thought you were convinced when you lost hundreds of dollars worth of fish. [/quote]

I was and am still practicing QT but recently have a HUGE concern…I will start another thread to get some blood boiling…

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I didnt read every post but alot of the Tangs that we keep are omnivores. While they might eat a majority of algae in the wild and our tanks they enjoy meaty foods as well. I feed mine sea veggies on a clip, brine/mysis shrimp, prime reef flakes, spurlina pellets and a custom flake food thats made from salmon, salmon eggs and other fish/veggies kept frozen/refrigerated. i never realized how much tangs really liked meaty foods till my 13" valmingi i had ate 3 silver sides when i put them on a rock for the shrimp/crabs. ate those things like it was nothing both of my Hippo tangs that ive had for over a year from 1/2" size are now almost 4 1/2" and fat as could be bright blue and yellow with a deep black. their fins are nice and long. i’ll try and get some pics.

tangs need a varied diet not just algae

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absolutely agree although im not sure anyone thought otherwise.

13" Valmingi? Wow!! Certainly not the most beautiful tangs as juveniles but at that size they are simply stunning!! How big was the Valmingi when you got it? How long have you had it for? What size tank is it in?

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Pictures i would love to see it…