Nitrates / Water Change ?'n

DRC Archive General Saltwater Discussion
1

90gallon tank, 20gallon sump. Probably right around 100gallons after Rock/Sand displacement.

So we know the best way to get nitrates down are with water changes.

My question is, to do smaller changes over a longer period of time, or do a big change?

I’ve brew’d up 20gal of saltwater…currently brewing up another 20gallons. (RO/DI)

Livestock are 2 Green Chromis and dirty water corals (zoo, xenia, kenya tree, shrooms,…).

Go for the full 40gal change, or do smaller 10gallon changes over a longer period?

I’m inclined to do all 40 to get it over with, but felt I should get a second opinion from the more experienced.

I’m between 20-30ppm roughly on the API test kit.

Thanks all,

Rob

2

[quote=“Faralon, post:1, topic:5641”]
90gallon tank, 20gallon sump. Probably right around 100gallons after Rock/Sand displacement.

So we know the best way to get nitrates down are with water changes.

My question is, to do smaller changes over a longer period of time, or do a big change?

I’ve brew’d up 20gal of saltwater…currently brewing up another 20gallons. (RO/DI)

Livestock are 2 Green Chromis and dirty water corals (zoo, xenia, kenya tree, shrooms,…).

Go for the full 40gal change, or do smaller 10gallon changes over a longer period?

I’m inclined to do all 40 to get it over with, but felt I should get a second opinion from the more experienced.

I’m between 20-30ppm roughly on the API test kit.

Thanks all,

Rob[/quote]

I’d be doing smaller, more frequent WC’s. So, do the 10 gals. every few days.

3

Not info information present to really say. Smaller would likely be better, but here is the big question. Have you been doing your weekly water changes and it still got to this point or has it been months since a water change was done.

If it has been a long time or you’ve been doing very small monthly water changes then a large water change could easily shock the tank.

Can you show us images of the tank? If it is full of xenia or related corals and you do a massive water change there is a large crash risk for these corals and this could harm other animals in the aquarium.

What is the end goal as well? Want to see a bit faster growth with these corals? Want to change over to keeping some hard corals? Too much algae growing in the tank? Have sick fish and you suspect the Nitrates are reducing their immune systems?

For what it is worth if you are getting 20-30ppm Nitrates with an API test kit the level is mostly likely much higher and these have been known to show lower then actual values.

Small frequent water changes are possibly the best thing you can do for your tank.

4

I had a peppermint shrimp, and a Diamond Spotted Goby, both from DPA die inside of 24hrs in this tank. The two Chromis, all the Corals, and all the snails. (Nass, Nerite, Cerith…which I hear are really sensitive to Nitrate) are all doing fine. Fish are happy and eating, corals look good and are growing, and the snails are eating algae and stirring the sand bed like champs.

I’m currently testing: Ph, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, Salinity. Everything looks good w/ the exception of my Nitrates.

I can only conclude, with the data that I am presently collecting, that the nitrates are the biggest issue, and don’t want to spend any more $$ on fish until they’re fixed. I know fish can live at 20/30ppm, and I’m going to guess that DPA probably has some nitrates in their water but still.

Its actually been almost 3 weeks since my last water change on June 22nd. However, I lean toward the train of though that if I can setup biological filtration properly, and add back to the water what the corals take out via means of automation/dosing/top off…that one can go 6months w/o a water change. In this 3 weeks, the nitrate levels have dropped actually, from 40ppm due to Cheato/BioPellets/De-Nitrate that I’ve implemented to deal with the final, and arguably the most frustration stage of the nitrogen cycle.

Fish waste, food leftovers, life/death on inverts, decaying plants act… get converted by heterotrophic bacteria that we either add, or populate within our tanks. That bacteria does a great job of taking care of the Ammonia and Nitrites…but then technically we have the waste of the bacteria to clean up, Nitrates. Most say to use regular water changes to remove the nitrates. The size of the regular water change is dependent on how much you need to change to maintain your low levels of nitrates vs your other husbandry activities like how much you feed, bio load, act…

So what we try to do is find a solution for the waste of the bacteria, again the Nitrates. We use Cheato, BioPellets, De-Nitrate, Vodka and other forms of carbon dosing to bind these nitrates, and a good protein skimmer to export the nitrates out of our tank.

For me, the nitrates were at 40ppm because I filled my tank with Elkton TAP water before my RO/DI system was here. My tap water has 40ppm of nitrates in it all the time. I now only use RO/DI water for water changes and topping off, and as I stated earlier, have brought the nitrates down from 40+ to roughly 25ppm or so…

Tank was setup on April 27th
Ph: 8.2
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 40

As the tank progressed, on May 15th I did my 1st water change. 20gallons
Ph: 7.9
Ammonia: 0.5
Nitrite: 0.25
Nitrate: 80ppm

Obviously the bacteria population was still building up at this time and the once Chromis was putting it to work on getting populated.

On June 22nd I did another 20gallon water change.
Ph: 7.9
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: between 20-30

The Heterotrophic bacteria are easily taking care of the fish waste, and in that time I fired up some Bio Pellets/Reactor, De-Nitrate, Cheato in the Sump for nitrate removal to take care of the bacteria’s waste.

Sounds good in theory right?

Now the thing with Water Changes and Nitrates. You normally have to make a big water change to make a sizable impact on their concentration. A 20% water change, would at best, only remove 20% of your existing nitrate concentration (in my case, roughly 30ppm), leaving 24ppm remaining. Thats why Im thinking larger is better.

The current tank and its inhabitants appear happy. And I actually do NOT have an algae problem at this point. I had most of it growing on my overflow box, with some green hair algae starting to grow…the Nerite snails found it and its as clean as it was when I put it in the tank…its amazing…love those snails!

I’ll post some pics of the tank as is, as I type. I usually take pics with the Nikon, but these are quickies from the iPhone right now.

Looking forward to the discussion(s). Hopefully that is enough data for you Gordon? ::thumbsup::

5

So I stated above, that my tank was up and running since April 27th.

Well…I won THIS frag as a door prize at my first DRC meeting that was on May 21st. I don’t even know what it is!!! (Favia??) But its survived everything my tank has gone thru. I’m proud of this little sucker cause it was realistically my 1st coral. (Thanks again DRC!)

Tank Params when it went in my tank…(Refugium at the time)

Ph: 8.1
Ammonia: 0.25
Nitrite: 0.25
Nitrate: 80ppm

Just took this shot…with the Nikon

I remember talking to A at the meeting about my high nitrates, and I felt terrible that I was probably going to kill this coral that I just got from DRC. (I joined as a member that night too)

Again…am am so proud of this sucker!

6

The bigest thing is balance, you look a little light on live rock do you have more in the sump ? without it you have a hard time providing what is needed to balance anoxic bacteria.
Take look at http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f6/reefkeeping-made-easy-what-was-not-explained-160389.html although I don’t agree with a lot of the OPs views he does provide some good reading.

7

Hey sorry, between balancing a massive family, an increasing client list, and my horrible habit of forgetting names I forgot your screen name and that I had seen your tank shots and info in the past.

I have often found shrimp to be very touchy with chemistry and acclimation. Though they seem to survive in many high nutrient systems it is more likely that sudden changes are what bothers them.

Nitrates at that level likely won’t out right kill a fish however they’ll weaken the immune system and decrease the likelihood of survival significantly.

“one can go 6months w/o a water change.” I am sure you can find a couple people who seem like geniuses on the internet who believe this is practical, but try to find a single book or public speaker who believes this and you’ll be hard pressed. I’ve maintained hundreds of different aquariums in the past from tiny pico tanks to massive reef aquariums, to local fish stores… I would never recommend going that long.

De-Nitrators may bring your level from 40ppm to 38-39ppm on an inaccurate hobby test kit, but they are not going to bring the levels low enough that it would have made a difference with those fish you just lost. If you have seen the levels drop more it was likely for other reasons.

If you read good sound articles on the use of bacteria and carbon dosing they will often tell you to perform more frequent and large water changes building up to (in anticipation of) adding the bacteria. It is best to start a low nutrient approach, by reaching a low nutrient level first and then maintaining it there.

If you have read up a bit on low nutrient systems and want to head that way feel free to let me know if you have questions. I run several low nutrient systems including on my personal 120 mixed reef. If the bacteria is working and maintained properly you may likely reach the point where your macro algaes will not grow.

Hudzon I believe he was waiting for some DIY rock to full leach out. Faralon if you do go to add rock to the tank do so slowly. You’ve been working on building a stable reef and it looks as if you’ve done a pretty good job so far, so don’t forget pretty much the golden rule… nothing good happens fast.

8

Hudson, thanks I’ll check that out. I know I can learn more about how the anaerobic bacteria break down of nitrates and what elements they convert it to and where it goes from there. Gordon is correct, I’m waiting for some DIY rock to leech out the lime from the Portland Cement they’re made of…that any oyster shells. I will agree, that currently I’m light on LR as far as needing the anaerobic environment they assist with to help w/ these nitrates.

9

Gordon, you run a tank maintenance business?

10

Yes, not sure how much I can discuss outside our sponsored forum, but I run TerraReef Aquariums.

I was a hobbyist first though. Too many other people get into the business for the wrong reasons and many of them enjoy the hobby so much they don’t even keep a tank at home…

11

I am assuming your ammonia and nitrite are 0 now. Nitrates at 20-30 are higher than we like but not horrible I know of some that had 100 and still had Sps living (not thriving but living). I don’t know much about bio pellets but I know denitrate and it works I use it with great success but it’ll take 3-6 months to get going so be patient and don’t change it just rinse it out lightly it also need slow flow through a canister filter or reactor 50 gph or less. I would do regular water changes and keet the denitrate going and it will get your trates to 0 for sure as long as you have enough and it’s running properly.