OK How about a QT debate.....

[Jcling]

If you don’t mind my advise I’ll share what I have learned through my experience.

Tank Parameters #1. You have bad tank parameters, your fish will get sick, they will get white spots, and they will die eventually. (Along w/ corals but we are only talking about fish).

Peaceful environment #2: If there are negative environmental factors, fish will be more susceptible to disease. Two good examples of this are fish fighting (lots of territorial fish in one tank), and a tank that is too small for the fish you are trying to successfully keep. Many have talked about keeping your fish alive vs. having your fish thrive. Two different tank environments can easily have two Very different outcomes for our fish and corals.

Food. If your fish are eating, you can help them IMO. I have no study to correlate my findings (for any of this info), but I use garlic, Vita Chem, Vit. C, and Selcom in all of the food fed to my fish. The food I feed: Mysis, enriched brine, and cyclop-eeze. Fish love it and I feed it. I got my WC pair of true perc’s in from singapore and they had some nasty stuff on them. I live in a dorm and don’t have the room or money for a QT tank so I had to deal w/ what I had. Fed them very well, and they started to eat. If you are worried about fish health, don’t restrict its diet, if it isn’t eating it has no chance to live. A simple CUC, good flow, and cleaning the filter sock will take care of the rest. Anyways, those clowns look great and I don’t have problems with any of the anymore (And they are now almost through their sixth month in my tank :))

Overall it is my impression and understanding (which won’t be swayed so just read and take what you would like from it :P) all fish have some type of disease that they will express if under great stress (no matter how long we QT them). Whether that be Ick, or other fish illnesses so the goal we must strive for is keeping our tanks in pristine condition. If we see stuff like fighting among fish (unless its clown on clown lol) we need to do something about it. I don’t have the space or money right now to have a QT tank as I have said, but I know that once I have my own place I will have one. Not so that the rest of my tank is saved from the terrible Ick bug, but rather that I learn the personality of my new fish so I can see if he/she is a good fit in the tanks I have running. If not, then you either set up a new tank, or find someone in the hobby who might want to buy it from you I hate how much fish waste is created through poor management of the livestock we purchase. There is a limited quantity of everything we buy, and if we take better care, and do our best to keep Every fish, coral, and invert alive, we will be doing something to help preserve these beautiful animals and our hobby. The fish farming and coral farming from the ocean will not stop until we run out (or until demand for supply diminishes), but if we can keep our hobby clean from bad opinions from outsiders, we can hopefully continue to aquaculture and maybe someday make it so we don’t need to put our hands into the ocean to keep our reef and FOWLR systems QT’s are great in aiding with this, but time, effort, and proper care go just as far cause they will have to go in the display at some point

Once again, just my :TWOCENTS but if it helps great, if not I hope you got something out of it

[Gordonious]

Really sorry you went to all that work and it hasn’t left you with the results you were looking for and I completely understand your frustration.
Let me first mention that while my experience and knowledge with fish is beyond most hobbyist, corals are more my focus. I can offer a second opinion, but by no means do I attempt to put myself out there as an expert in treating fish. I am glad you found someone with a good deal of experience in this area to talk to and have read through Lee’s articles. I’d suggest you’d consider copying much of what you wrote here and paste it in one of Lee’s forums and ask how it’s possible the fish still got sick. While you may never find out for sure perhaps someone can find an obvious hole in the procedure you were using and perhaps there could be more added to it/fine tuning.
I am glad that you still believe in QT to at least some degree and practice it. I will never say that every hobbyist must follow a specific QT procedure to the T mostly because most never will. I do think it is important that most people are at least made aware of it and presented with the information. Then they can make a personal choice. Many people get feathers ruffled when I even mention it, but I feel many people who are willing and able to at least perform a basic QT, are made aware of it only after they have had significant issues. I believe most “advanced” hobbyist should at least monitor corals for pest anemones and algae.(Can’t frustrated with anyone else when you are the one adding things to your tank and decided not to keep an eye on the coral first) I also believe most “advanced” hobbyist should allow wild caught animals stressed from transport to recover before getting thrown in with aggressive animals.) Few hobbyist who get into corals or to more advanced FOWLR systems can deny the benefits of a proper QT, many just choose to debate the practicality of it which is a personal choice.

Couple questions:
The PVC pipes are larger pieces they can hide in?
You were testing for Nitrates as well?(not that it would have let the pests through if the levels were high, just wasn’t sure if it was part of your procedure and think it should be)
One thing I would highly recommend is a second Copper test kit. I am growing to dislike Salifert more and more and will openly say as far as I am concerned the product and company SUCK. While I would never say this about any other company, heck there is not a single individual on the planet which would read this and even care. They are a 100% faceless company with 0 reps or any individuals that as far as I am aware of even exist or participate in the industry at all. If you get a faulty product from a bad batch which happens WAY too often you are out of luck as far as support goes and it is up to your LFS or wholesaler if they will take a return because they won’t get anything back from the company and will eat that cost.
Any time I have ever used copper I used both Salifert and SeaChem to double check each other. It is good that you are both keeping an eye on how much you add to the tank as well as what the test kits read.
Just asking because I don’t personally know and feel it is important that you do know with your procedure: do you understand how “cuprisorb” works and what it’s effects are on testing? If you were to have a full dose of copper in the tank, and didn’t use any carbon or do any water changes and just added enough cuprisorb, what levels of copper would your kit read? Would it just bind to the copper molecules making them inactive and unable to harm animals, but still be present in the water and possibly still show up on a test? If so and you treated another fish in the tank later perhaps your kit would tell you the levels were high enough to kill off ich, but they were not. Just a possibility that needs to be eliminated.

[Gordonious]

[quote=“Jcling, post:21, topic:2941”]
Tank Parameters #1. You have bad tank parameters, your fish will get sick, they will get white spots, and they will die eventually. (Along w/ corals but we are only talking about fish).[/quote]

Define bad and define sick. I would replace, “You have” with “If your parameters are far enough off”.

Some can try to debate if it is even possible to eliminate ich from a marine environment, but I believe it is and that I do not have it in my tank. I believe it is not at all a fact that if your parameters are off your fish will get white spots. You could do anything at all to my tank parameters and my fish will not get white spots.(well unless you poured a can of white paint in the water or added ich to it)

I would say 92*F is “bad”, but have had both fish and corals live through it with no white spots. I would also say that salinity above 1.033 is “bad, but I’ve had both corals and fish live through it with no white spots. I would say a Magnesium level above 1650ppm is “bad”, but have had both corals and fish live through it. Heck years ago I even kept a 2”+ purple tang in 5 gallons of water with fluctuating temperature and high nitrates and poor nutrition for over a month without it showing a single white spot.(ashamed I did this , but we have all put animals through harm as beginners at some point) I’m not condoning keeping your level off, but my point is (Poop) happens and while most people would have sick or dead fish mine are thriving now and have been through some (Poop) in the past.
I know a professional that once told me if he isn’t around to take care of his tank for even a week and just leaves someone else to feed pellet food that it would stress from the change and develop ich. Mine have been through a heck of a lot without a spot. I’m not at all saying my fish are indestructible or could live through anything you throw at them, but no matter what happens they will not show ich even when on the verge of death.
Will most people get to the point where ich is out of there tank completely, no, but few would prefer a tank with ich to a tank without it. It is a personal choice to go to the extreme to keep it out or not. I am a devoted hobbyist and for me I prefer to take the extra steps to keep it out.

[Gordonious]

Agree with the peaceful environments statement and I agree that it is important to keep your parameters in line and feed a healthy variety.

[quote=“Jcling, post:21, topic:2941”]
If you are worried about fish health, don’t restrict its diet[/quote]
I would be careful with a statement like this as anyone could read this on the web. I know you know the result of over feeding, but most beginner hobbyist have problems overfeeding small tanks and this directly results in poor parameters and sick fish. Someone who is not yet aware of what the result will be in increasing food should not be instructed to do so without a foot note or at least specific instructions given by the advise who is aware of the condition of the tank.

[quote=“Jcling, post:21, topic:2941”]
A simple CUC, good flow, and cleaning the filter sock will take care of the rest.[/quote]
Again I would advise against making a statement like this. I have heard many people walk into an LFS and say that someone told them all they needed to do was throw a protein skimmer on their tank all all of their problems would go away. Would be best if when you share your experience you do so as if you were writing a paper for science class and prepare your words so your professor can’t shoot holes in them.(or in this example a novice hobbyist doesn’t take your words as gospel and leave the hobby when they have sick fish and hair algae even though they put snails, power heads, and a filter sock in the tank)
Always good to share your experience and offer words of wisdom, but you must be careful with your words especially when written on a forum which the audience is not always known.

Not at all trying to attach your post or you, just offereing some feedback.

[Gordonious]

I agree that we must strive to keep our fish healthy and tanks in good condition.
Most fish will come in with some sort of disease or parasite attached to them. You may say you QT them only to keep an eye on their personalities, but some fish such as triggers and live and behavior normally when significantly covered in ich or other parasites. You cannot tell me that when you QT if there is a 2” parasitic isopod on the side of your fish or that it is covered with flukes, velvet, or anything else that you will add it to your tank after you’ve simply learned your personality. You also can’t convince me that the fish would not benefit from the time separated from the competition for food and space allowing it to better adapt to captive life and fight off whatever ailments it may have. You can say you will QT only to learn it’s personality, but you have to admit you’ll be getting other benefits as well.

[quote=“Jcling, post:21, topic:2941”]
The fish farming and coral farming from the ocean will not stop until we run out (or until demand for supply diminishes)[/quote]
Choose your words carefully. Do you have a specific problem with mariculture?(farming in the ocean) I personally think it has its problems and is likely not as good or sustainable practice as land based aquauculte in a land based facility. It may also has a bigger carbon foot print when you consider what it takes to transport millions of bags of water from one island to another, to Cali, to NY, to an LFS. I also don’t believe it can last forever unless you are just farming jellyfish as we have screwed up the planet enough and way too soon the ocean will no longer be able to support most species we keep in captivity due to ocean acidification and global warming.(I don’t think farming was the word you were looking for there. Perhaps “collecting”?)

I agree QTs are great at aiding with public opinion of reef keeping and the overall stability of the industry. It is another tool that I personally use. Some people use skimmers, some done. Some people use carbon, others don’t. Anyone in the hobby long enough should be aware of QT and I think should read into it and make a personal decision.

[Gordonious]

Said more then I wanted to and spent more time then I card to write all that, but you guys dragged me into it, lol.

[rbu1]

[quote=“Gordonious, post:22, topic:2941”]
Couple questions:
The PVC pipes are larger pieces they can hide in?
You were testing for Nitrates as well?(not that it would have let the pests through if the levels were high, just wasn’t sure if it was part of your procedure and think it should be)
One thing I would highly recommend is a second Copper test kit. I am growing to dislike Salifert more and more and will openly say as far as I am concerned the product and company SUCK. While I would never say this about any other company, heck there is not a single individual on the planet which would read this and even care. They are a 100% faceless company with 0 reps or any individuals that as far as I am aware of even exist or participate in the industry at all. If you get a faulty product from a bad batch which happens WAY too often you are out of luck as far as support goes and it is up to your LFS or wholesaler if they will take a return because they won’t get anything back from the company and will eat that cost.
Any time I have ever used copper I used both Salifert and SeaChem to double check each other. It is good that you are both keeping an eye on how much you add to the tank as well as what the test kits read.
Just asking because I don’t personally know and feel it is important that you do know with your procedure: do you understand how “cuprisorb” works and what it’s effects are on testing? If you were to have a full dose of copper in the tank, and didn’t use any carbon or do any water changes and just added enough cuprisorb, what levels of copper would your kit read? Would it just bind to the copper molecules making them inactive and unable to harm animals, but still be present in the water and possibly still show up on a test? If so and you treated another fish in the tank later perhaps your kit would tell you the levels were high enough to kill off ich, but they were not. Just a possibility that needs to be eliminated. [/quote]

Yes PVC pipe is all 4" diameter large enough for them to fit in…

I have not been testing for nitrates in my QT. But really don’t think that has any effect on the function of the copper. I do test in my main tank…Not regularly but I do test…

Don’t get my started on Copper test kits…I have tried them all…Instant Ocean used to make a test kit that was fairly user friendly but does not work that well with Cuprmaine, Red Sea makes a kit that works with Cuprmaine but it was real hard for me to tell the colors…Seachems kit I also had a hard time telling the color range.Salifert was the one I had the easiest time telling the .5 range with. As far as its accuracy hard for me to tell I was just trusting the kit. If Hanna was on the ball with getting me my low range copper colorimeter I ordered 3 months ago I might be in a better situation right now…I am still waiting for it. I order a $350.00 low range copper colorimeter because I wanted to make sure my test results with the copper were accurate. But while I was waiting for the darn thing to be delivered I was using salifert. Maybe I should just cancel the order now that my main tank has ich again anyway…

Not sure on the chemist aspect of Cuprisorb but I know it along with carbon and a 50 gallon water change will get my copper reading down to 0 in about 3 days.

Trust me Jon…I did my homework. And I thought I was doing everything right…Now that my main tank has ich, I will still continue to use my 30 gallon long QT but I will not treat the fish unless I see a need and just hope my QT makes the fish strong enough to be able to fight the ich in the main tank off…All I can do at this point, because I am not breaking the tank down again!!!. So I think I answered my question I am going to cancel my order for the copper colorimeter and get my money back…

[Gordonious]

PLEASE READ FIRST

[quote=“rbu1, post:27, topic:2941”]
I have not been testing for nitrates in my QT. But really don’t think that has any effect on the function of the copper. I do test in my main tank…Not regularly but I do test… [/quote]
I was trying to explain that I doubt it has any effect on the function of copper and your QT, but that I would recommend doing so.(also stating it just for completeness as I know others are reading this as well and should do this if they are new to practicing QT) Adding copper or performing hypo or any other treatment is stressful enough without the presence of significant Nitrates. Now that you have switched to a 30g tank you may consider testing occasionally just see how things go and if you ever using hypo I would strongly urge testing Nitrates frequently. If your goal is to not only design a procedure that will rid the fish of a significant amount of disease and parasites, but to also put the fish through as little stress as possible and if you are to develop a procedure that you would use over and over again(I know you buy more than one fish a year Then I would make sure whatever you do Nitrates stay low or the procedure is adjusted.
You mentioned in the past that you wanted to develop a complete procedure that you would use and I know if you have switched to a 30g tank a LOT of fish in the future could be going in and out of that tank. (and many of them pricy because of your good tastes) For the sake of being complete I believe while still figuring out what you are doing you should test occasionally. You personally have more experience than most hobbyist or else I would be telling you it is pretty much required to test every couple of days until you figure out what you are doing. [/quote]

I completely understand frustration with test kits.(In the last year I switched my Ca, Alk, and Mg and like them very much.) I think it would be a good idea to find out if copper bound by that copper product can still register on a test kit. I was recently talking with Chris Brightwell about one of his products used for dealing with Phophates. The product would bind to phosphate making it unavailable for biological obsorption. The phosphate molecule is still in the water though and can still show up in tests! I wonder if the same was true for copper in your 125 and while the levels tested at a range that would seemingly kill ich if they were MUCH lower. I have seen ich surive through lower levels of copper in a system, so it is 100% possible if your level was not high enough ich could get through. If there is even the slightest chance that your test kit was also off then this very well may have been the problem.
You’ve come very far and I personally would try to rule out these testing problems before giving up on the procedure entirely.
If you questioned the validity of your test kits enough to order that colorimeter then perhaps you believed before even posting this there was a very good chance not having enough copper in the system was the problem.
If you are also deciding to stop treating all of your fish as part of your QT procedure because of some of the fish you lost or the stress you believe they had to go through, but never once tested Nitrates I would also reconsider trying again with testing frequently. I do not believe putting my tang or clowns through hypo stressed them significantly at all. They were colored normal, ate normal, behaved normal even when being kept in a small tank in addition. If I thought I was severely stressing them during this procedure and believed I would lose them I would have stopped prematurely, but that wasn’t the case. If you don’t believe the procedure stressed them why stop(especially without knowing the answers to testing) if you do believe the procedure stressed them consider frequent testing.

I can see your frustration, but I also have seen images of your tanks and fish in the past. Simply beautiful and far beyond, to be perfectly honest, what most of the people in this or any other forum will ever achieve. You mentioned being frustrated with the hobby in general. I would hate for you to leave the hobby due to something like f’ing Salifert. Please don’t give up yet, consider writing Lee and looking into the product you used to decrease the effectiveness of copper and testing.(if if you can’t find the answer perhaps after each treatment a 100% water change would help, wouldn’t be that drastic if you were done with the current fish and just did a water change from your large tanks)

[rbu1]

My reason for switching my QT tank size from the 125 to the 30 long was for the fact it is much easier to do a large water change. Thru the discussions I had with Copps on RC he does 100% water changes with the fish he has in QT so I was going to try and do the same.

My changing of plans related to my QT process was only due to the fact my main tank now has ich. So why bother stressing the fish with a copper treatment in QT to just place him/her in a system that I know already has ich. Like I said I am not tearing that tank down again. My plan and hopefully I can stick with it…

Leave my little female crosshatch in the 30 gallon QT for at least another month or two and do a 100% water change every week. Hopefully the fish in my main tank are strong enough to fight off the ich. After a couple months of the female being on QT I will move her over to my ich infected main tank and hope she got strong enough in QT to also fight it off…I have a $150.00 credit from NY Aquatic that I want to use before I loose it SO…After I get the little female out of QT I will use my credit from NY to get something…Not sure what but something colorful and rare…I will QT the NY aquatic item for again another couple months or so… keeping my fingers crossed that everyone in the main tank fight it off and stay healthy…After my NY Aquatic addition I plan on leaving the tank alone for a good year before I think of adding another fish just to see how things play out…Sound like a plan???

[rbu1]

OH and thank you for the comments on my tank…If my plan fails it might be for sale lOl lOl lOl lOl

[andrewk529]

[quote=“Gordonious, post:19, topic:2941”]

[quote=“andrewk529, post:2, topic:2941”]
to my knowledge the “ich” parasite has a 6 month life cycle.[/quote]

Source? I could provide plenty which would argue most strains of Cryptocaryon seen have a life cycle less than 1/3 that long. [/quote]

it was a thread on RC; again, i could be wrong granted the source. the 6 month duration referred to the ability to reside in substrate

[rbu1]

[quote=“andrewk529, post:31, topic:2941”]

[quote=“Gordonious, post:19, topic:2941”]

[quote=“andrewk529, post:2, topic:2941”]
to my knowledge the “ich” parasite has a 6 month life cycle.[/quote]

Source? I could provide plenty which would argue most strains of Cryptocaryon seen have a life cycle less than 1/3 that long. [/quote]

it was a thread on RC; again, i could be wrong granted the source. the 6 month duration referred to the ability to reside in substrate[/quote]

I don’t think that is true…Geeze!!! if that were the case you would have to do a 6 month fallow period…

[Gordonious]

[quote=“rbu1, post:29, topic:2941”]
my main tank now has ich. So why bother stressing the fish with a copper treatment in QT[/quote]

This one is easy to answer. First off there are different strains of ich, the fish you have are currently fighting off the ich on their own correct? Fish can develop temporary resistance to a strain of ich. I think it would be fruitful to prevent throwing another strain of ich into your tank. It is also possible, at least one paper out now that supports, that if most if your fish develop a strong resistance to the ich that is in the tank and you keep them healthy and your parameters stable… it is 100% possible that your tank will become completely ich free again in the future without you removing the fish.

You’ve spent a good bit of time reading up on ich, have you ever read or had much experience with flukes? I have seen tanks full of fish lost to flukes in a VERY low nutrient, overly filtered environment. Even if you keep your tank pristine the fish cannot get away from them and you could lose everything. While your tank may have some ich present all is not lost and keeping other parasites and disease out in my opinion would be worth it.

[quote=“rbu1, post:29, topic:2941”]
Leave my little female crosshatch in the 30 gallon QT for at least another month or two[/quote]
If you are going to leave your trigger in QT for 8 weeks why not just go 10 and use your old procedure armed with better testing equipment?

[quote=“rbu1, post:29, topic:2941”]
…I will QT the NY aquatic item for again another couple months or so…[/quote]
Once again if it is already going to be in QT why not take the extra step? As you learned with the eel different fish have different resistance levels to parasites and disease, but most can carry them. Without treatment of any kind… in goes flukes, velvet, new strains of ich?

It is ultimately up to you 100% The above statements are not at all arguments to attempt to upset you or for the sole purpose of arguing with you.

[quote=“rbu1, post:29, topic:2941”]
I plan on leaving the tank alone for a good year before I think of adding another fish just to see how things play out[/quote]
No wait seriously? LOL Your going to be 100% happy with how many fish you have in there? You’re not going to be sitting at the next NJRC frag swap asking Andy if you think a fish will work well with yours biting your nails as other reefers look over a very rare and unique fish you’ve never seen before? Also consider how you would feel if you were attached to all your current fish for another year and added another fish and choose at that point to not treat the fish and introducing something and lost most your fish……
Leaving things as is for a while may very well be a good idea, but at the same time I think you’ve come so far in understanding and preparing yourself for taking care of your fish that it would be a shame to back away from your procedure now.

No problem on the comment and understand I completely mean it. I believed you had very nice tanks before you posted the picture above. I am very jealous. I was very sad to hear you were having trouble over a year ago with your tanks when Andy told me. I am sorry if I was a PITA to get a hold of then and not of much help. At that point I was just starting my new job and I tried to get my new boss to chip in and lend a hand, but well he wouldn’t and now I know that is probably a good thing as it wouldn’t have helped you anyways.(want to say more here, but censoring myself) Regardless I wish I could have helped more back then.

PS. I hope you never sell your tank. I doubt anyone who could afford it would keep it in the condition you do. I personally don’t even feel I could afford to even look at your tank, lol. Ever thought of helping to offset maintenance costs by giving tours? “Kids under 10 get in for $1!”

[Gordonious]

99.9% sure the source claiming 6 months is wrong and yes I agree that would make things much more difficult if it was true.

[Jcling]

This is not a science class at my University, so I will not write as if it was, it is a simple forum. Too much work, and not much of what we say is scientific, its opinion based off experience. Therefore if someone has a question from my general comments, I can clarify.

Most of us are rather experienced on this forum, so generalization is fine. And most of what I said is easily understandable. Pristine water conditions define themselves. If you start to slack and let your water levels get bad you run into problems. I would hope we have some idea as to the many problems that can occur when you let a tank go. I didn’t define “bad” because MANY things could go under this category therefore it is pointless to define in one way. I was being very general when talking about the fish then developing white spots and dieing and such, but we were all new reefers once and we all learned our lessons.

I disagree that you can remove all disease from your systems, but we could make another debate on that if you would like  I feel the expression of these diseases can be virtually eliminated but elimination of these diseases all together is another thing.

On the diet thing, lots of people reduce feeding when their fish gets sick b/c they aren’t readily eating. If you start reducing the amount of available food, you are increasing the problem.

I love mariculturing. No problems w/ that but we all know that is not the only way we are removing corals, fish, and inverts from our oceans. We are also taking many fish that are not able to be bread right now out of the ocean, then shipping stress and many other factors create a large die off. Creating very specific detailed ideas about general ideas is very easy, but it is even easier to shoot bad question down. I have a Big problem w/ a lot of irresponsible reef keeping that those who harvest our fish and corals might not consider. For instance the cyanide that is used to collect some of our fish (w/ and w/o our knowledge) which explodes their bladders so they rise to the tops… Pretty crazy. Then to top it all off, that cyanide kills all the corals in the area that it was sprayed… VERY big problem w/ irresponsible reefing like this, but it would be silly to think that I have a problem w/ mariculturing.

And about the QT, I have added fish w/ disease straight into my system after seeing if they are going to be compatible (personality) and once they are eating with NO ill effects. I gave the example of my WC perc’s. Healthy diet, and the correct tank environments will take care of the rest.

[system]

It is also possible, at least one paper out now that supports, that if most if your fish develop a strong resistance to the ich that is in the tank and you keep them healthy and your parameters stable.. it is 100% possible that your tank will become completely ich free again in the future without you removing the fish.

wow Jon i find this absolutely fascinating!! would you not concede that it is quite possible that this is exactly what i have been describing for the last several years anecdotally?

your point, however, does not escape me. even if your established system can become ich free through this process it only takes the introduction of a different strain of ich from another source to begin the process again.

jcling - what can i say? i have had the same experiences and have been sharing them for years.

i will reiterate and say that i feel if you have the space for a “proper” QT system then it should be a priority to set one up and keep it running in conditions fit for habitation. this should be fairly easy for anyone with a nano-tank since it is likely that you are buying fish “in-scale” with a nano-sized tank so provding a secondary QT tank in scale should not be an issue in regards to space. it might be that in this scenario cost is more prohibitive than space but an effective QT system can be setup very cheaply. when i rebuild my fish room it was very important for me to incorporate a QT tank. ironically, the prospect of purchasing crosshatch triggers and other costly fish was my motivation. however, i simply did not have the physical room to put in a 48" tank which i felt was the bare minimum for larger fish or large schools of fish. when stocking a larger tank like mine you often buy fish in numbers that would not work in smaller tanks or types of fish that simply arent compatible in smaller tanks. i will have almost 80 fish in my tank when its said and done. my next order will be for 25 cardinal fish. these guys would pick each other off one by one in any tank less than a 75g and quite possibly even in a 75g. true i could buy them in smaller groups. pay more money for shipping. and then break the “cardinal rule” about introducing similar fish at the same time. a rule that i happen to believe in and follow very closely. anyone that knows me will tell you i have been working on my stocking list since before i even bought my tank! its undergone several changes(from FOWLR to Reef for example) but it is very meticulous.
not only do i know which fish i will stock my tank with but i know the order in which i will introduce them as well as which fish i will buy together and which i will buy alone. their is a lot of strategy that goes into ensuring a stable, healthy, community of fish. by no means am i claiming to be an expert. im only claiming to care and put a lot of energy and thought into ensuring good health for my fish. maybe thats why ive never been much of a coral guy ;D

[rbu1]

Jon,

I see your pont and will continue my current QT proceudre.

I am also aware of flukes thats why I started using PraziPro in addition to the Cuprmaine. I usually add a fish wait till he/she is eating then dose PraziPro. Wait another week or so after a large water change and carbon till I start Cuprmaine.

I will leave the female in QT and do a full prazipro and cuprmaine treatment on her.

I appreciate all the kind words about my tank…I put a good amount of time and effort into maintaining it…“ask the wife”…She would be happy if I packed it in and sold the system…

AND you are probably correct…I have a real hard time saying no to a nice looking rare fish…BUT in the best interest of my livestock I am going to have to refrain…Like I said female crosshatch, then use my $150.00 credit from NY Aquatic…Then nothing for a LONG time…

[rbu1]

Jon,

Is there any forms of bacterial infections that could resemble ich? I am have a really hard time understanding how ich made it in my system after a 3-4 week treatment of Cupramine…Im struggling!!! The crosshatch appears to be getting better…Still early but I am trying to be optomistic…

[Marchingbandjs]

Im sure he will pull through, it could just be stress. I know tha some fish get white dots when they get stressed. Forgot where i read that maybe it was some species of tangs or something… maybe jon knows more