Wth folks,
75rr with 30 sump, quiet one 3000, 2 1450 power heads and aquatic life t5 lites.
Tank is now 3 wks young, 80lbs live aragamax and only 20 lbs live tonga from Lfs.
Life is only 2 doz cleanup crew guys(sifting snails, hermits, and a couple turbos. Oh and after 1 week, 2 pj cardinals.
Now it gets weird: all water rodi from new setup, salt is reef crystals.
Initial start looked great, I had, small cycle for about 1st week, (live sand)?
Around day 8, saw a nice diatom bloom, cleared in 6 days.
Around the same time water started to appear cloudy.
Since then, I can not make it go away. Things tried:
1 water changes, 15 gal every other day foot total of 60 gal now. No change at all.
2. Added a mechanical filter, floss and carbon type ( just in case of particles )
Current chemistry… Maybe a clue here!
Sal 1.024
Ph 8.4 drops to 8 almost daily
Ammonia 0
Trites 0
Trates 0
Phos 0
Trites and trates did bounce to 5 or so off and on for 1st week I considered that normal
Now interesting, calcium has not come below 520
Carbonate hardness is down to 4 (8 -12 recommended ). All tests done with API kit.
I have only been I adding the aquavitro 8.4 and balance so far trying to get this sorted out
Best description, water has slight tea stain look to it,but didnot alter at all with water change. Also, with all flow stopped in display it looks like smoke in the water. This is so pronounced that I cant clearly see the rock.
I’m stopping tomorrow to get different product to try and get carbonate hardness up…
Sorry for the book, just never seen this before.
First thing I would recommend is that you get a better/more accurate/reliable test kit, either Salifert or I’ve had good luck with the NEW Red Sea Reef Foundation Pro, and Algea control kits. You need to check your Mg, if it’s not around 1200 minimum, you’ll never get your Ca and Alk right. Here is a good article about the balance of these elements:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-06/rhf/index.php
Long story, short. If your Mg is too low, your Ca and Alk will bind to each other and precipitate out as calcium carbonate. This could be giving you a cloudy look. It may also just be a bacterial bloom.
PS If you don’t have any bio load that requires these elements, I wouldn’t worry about getting them up right now. Most salt mixes will have near the required amount. Also, you should read your pH at the same time each day since it does change throughout the day there is nothing wrong with a reading of 8.
More info on pH:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/index.php
and basics on water parameters:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.php
I would save these articles for future reference.
I think you might be trying to do too much too soon. If you’ve got a decent RO/DI unit and are using a decent grade of salt mix, you shouldn’t need to be supplementing anything at this time, just let nature take its course.
I agree with Downbeach, check your Mg. No need to do water changes. See if you can borrow or buy a TDS meter and check your R/O water, should read 0. take it slow, patience is a must in this hobby.
Thanks guys,
I agree with what you are saying…maybe i’m trying to balance too much??
I am only worried because this is so cloudy i cant see the rock in the middle of the tank. What is odd, is that i would think any solids…etc…would eventually settle with no current… it’s been like this for 10-11 days now…and i would have thought that the water change at least would dilute what i’m seeing…that is not the case so far…
To make matters worse…swmbo is not happy. You know them william penn girls :
:
I didn’t see you list a skimmer or filter system ? it could very well be a bacteria bloom
live aragamax is full of dead stuff 
just right to provide the perfect food for a bacteria population explosion.
you said you have 20lbs of live rock do you have any base or dry rock added ?
Stop trying to buff up the water, cant see a reason why you would need to do it just yet. reef crystals with DI water should be fine for now. Dont worry so much about hitting the 8.2 pH even 7.8 is fine. Check you alk with a good test kit. Did you cure your live rock before adding it to the tank? Was the live rock added from the start or after the tank was set up and run? After using the live sand I will never use it again, might just be a personal preference but my other tank seemed much more stable using sea floor special and just letting it cycle normally with a nice amonia spike to start it off. With the live sand I never saw a ammonia spike so I think there may be some sort of binder in the mix. I also had a white hazy look for 3 weeks when using the live sand. Coincidence ???
Oh and one last question, are you adding the buffer to the DI water or to the salt water mix?
guys, all good input! thank you so much for your patience. I may be out thinking myself???
to answer other ?.
1 we got the 20lbs of live rock from lfs, (had just been cured) i have no other rock yet.
2. didn’t add a skimmer yet, although that is where i am leaning… (figured i didn’t have any load yet)
3 Live aragamax…hmmm fast easy cycle…maybe problem though, i never thought of the amout of stuff that could be dead in that. Dang, swmbo talked me into that too…
So, although i left things completely alone for a week. ( i was traveling for work) I guess it could be a bloom and not precipitate… gotta wait til next week to get a skimmer. was gonna get the ASM ?
I will check mg just to be sure…but guess i will take wait and see approach and not touch anything for a couple weeks… Should i go ahead and add skimmer next weekend when finances allow?
Trying to remember the tank i had 10 yrs ago… even though i think i’m being patient now…i was likely more patient then… I really am wondering if the live aragomax is the issue…
A skimmer would be the next item on a wish list followed by a GFO and a GAC reactor. Shop around and ask questions here, on the equipment you intend to buy, you’ll get a lot of opinions on which is best, but there are some pieces of equipment that are know to be problematic.
I realize it’s already been said, but I’ll say it again for emphasis … slow down.
The biggest mistake people make when getting in to this hobby is trying to make everything perfect right off the bat. Give your tank plenty of time to settle, cycle, and find it’s own balance. With no live stock, and no corals, you don’t have to be as concerned about calcium and alk results. There’s not much in the tank that uses calcium so it shouldn’t be depleting.
Be careful using the “PH up” type products as they are notrious for causing you to spike alkalinity and creating precipitate. If you’re adding anything to the tank (chemical wise) do it slowly and sperately.
Add a skimmer to pull out anything in the water column - I use an ASM and love it - mechanical filtration should help with cloudy, as will carbon.
To touch on the live sand vs dry sand argument - live sand can be good for helping establish a bio filter, as long as it’s stil alive. I’ve seen bags in the LFS that had the word “live” crossed out with a sharpie becaus eit had been on the shelf too long. Dead live sand will add nothing mre than dead organisms to your tnak. The reason the previous poster mentioned never seeing an ammonia spike is because the live sand had enough bacteria to offset the lack of ammonia in the tank.
make sure your tank is fully cycled, add a little food for the clean-up crew -which will also help your cycle, then add everything else very slowly.
[quote=“Cdangel0, post:10, topic:4933”]
Be careful using the “PH up” type products as they are notrious for causing you to spike alkalinity and creating precipitate. If you’re adding anything to the tank (chemical wise) do it slowly and sperately.[/quote]
+1, Test your alk…
So,
moving forward…i guess i forgot how long it took me when i did this years ago, the better half is looking at me with this in the family room…and right now u can’t see the back half of the tank. slap-stick
Anyway, i guess it was way to easy to think about the water chemistry way toooo much too soon I get that!!
I have the API test kits ( lots of debate over them) this was showing calc over 520 and carbonate hardness @ 4dkh.
as of now…i am in slow motion mode, not even trying to correct anything for awhile, just maintain top off.
I would like to test the rodi for tds though. end of next week i will add a skimmer, I was thinking ASM G series??
I hear lots of good reviews on that, with the exception of noise.
Fact is, the first brown bloom left the substrate after about a week…this has been cloudy as heck for 2. I would have thought the water changes as listed would have put a dent in this bloom…if that’s what it is…but ok.
the clean up crew including turbos are still very active so i guess quality is ok…we’ll ride the tide for awhile…
Thank you all and i hope to meet some of u soon. btw the guys at dpa have been patient as well… I really am trying to go slow…just headstrong over chemistry
I swear my by ASM G3 - but I know others that say the technology is outdated. I know someone has an Octopus skimmer for sale in the market place right nw, another good brand, same design as the ASM.
If you go with the ASM look in to the “Gate Valve” mod for it, it helps dial it in perfectly and I can teach you a trick to quieting it down a bit.
Something is a miss here, dkh 4 ? pH 8? I use the reef crystals too with di water the dkh is usually 8 and pH about 8 first thing in the morning. I don’t use the api test kit for all though, maybe ill try it later when I get home.
Any one else have a thought on this?
I’m chalking the DkH up to either a bad test kit or user error. I would like to hear what the LFS gets when the OP takes a water sample in for testing.
In my opinion nothing could still be alive in the tank with a DkH of 4.
Update,
Went back to familiar seachem reef builder…realized that using the aquavitro balance and 8.4 may have been too soon…too much…etc.
Tonite, calcium still seems over 520, but dkh is back to normal @ 8.
All the clean up crew still seems happy.
Takeaway for me,
Quit trying to adjust so much, hope the tank clears, get a skimmer next week.
I have been good and slow thinking about adding critters, but guilty of trying real hard to stabilize a new system.
I think the live sand has really thrown me off with minimal cycle.
Thanks again folks, advice welcome.
Boggy, you are scaring me. I dont see that there is anything in your tank at this time that would consume so much alkalinity that you would need any type of buffer. I hope my thinking is wrong, that you may be causing an alkalinity spike that is unseen because of some interfearance with the test kit. You are the one in the drivers seat, but something just does not seem right to me >LOCO<. Could you make up a gallon of salt water and test its alk to rule out a problem with the salt mix and test kit?
yup,
will do. this does not make a whole lot of sense to me either… I will test a gallon of seperately fresh made tonite.
What I can tell you, is that when the tank was first filled, everything tested within normal parameters… Absolutely I concur that i have no bio-load to be pulling this stuff down. I have 3 variables in play that i know of aside from new tank syndrome:
- I started micro managing trying to have all parameters dialed in…
- Never used that aragamax live sand before
- Never had used the Aquavitro products before. I am confident that I was dosing in " proper amount" of the 8.4 and balance. Now i am not confident that either should have been used at all…
Like i said…i have stopped all of that, and had gone back to the reef builder…put it in as i know how do do and by the next day I am back at 8DkH…
So, I will test a gal tonite, and i’m sure I am " using the test kit as per directions". May be the test kit or user error is significately off enough??
Heck all that being said, the tank is still quite cloudy. A picture wouldn’t do it justice, but if you look low in the DT it almost looks like what u see when salt is disolving in water… If that makes sense. For the foreseeable future, i’m not adding anything!!
It seems that we have a chemistry problem here. Lets look at what is working, and what isn’t working.
Working: Biologicals. It seems that your nitrogen cycle and associated bacteria are doing their job. Kudos on not killing them off yet, with how much you are trying to dose to control dKH. I overdosed with Reef Builder early on in my tank, and nearly killed everything off with a dKH spike. This was due to a bad test kit from API, and ignorance on my part.
pH is associated with dKH, but we sometimes forget that the measurement of alkaline vs acidic is done through the presence (or absence) of hydronium ions. Carbonates will precipitate out in the presence of acids, which is why we associate low carbonate levels with higher acidity. Raising the dKH is a poor way to control (raise) pH, and will only cause you headaches.
Your dKH is dropping radically, which tells me that either you have a poor test kit, or you have outrageously high calcium levels. High calcium levels will precipitate out your carbonates as an insoluable white salt, Calcium Carbonate. Dosing with calcium will cause this, and if you’re dosing calcium I would stop immediately as you will only exasterbate the problem.
As was mentioned before, your properly mixed good-quality salt at a level around 1.025-1.026 SG, measured with a reliable refractometer, should take care of your tank nutritional needs. Your salt should have the cal/mg/carbonate levels listed on the container, or it should be available on the company website. As your tank nutritional dependency increases, you should monitor and rectify accordingly (but we are in troubleshoot mode now, so let’s not worry about that just yet).
I assume that the milky white precipitate in your tank is a suspended salt, perhaps the Calcium Carbonate I meantioned earlier. This could be stirred up off the bottom with too much flow pointed at the sand, or from the substantial amount being precipitated out of solution on a daily basis as your tank is trying to reach a chemical equilibrium.
Magnesium is key in balancing your Calcium and Carbonates. Proper Mg levels (along with proper dKH and Cal. levels) will lead to a less stressful management of chemical levels, and a happier (clear and beautiful) tank.
I wish you the best, and hope that the advice on this forum will help you resolve your problem. A reef ecosystem is a beautiful thing, and I find it rewarding on a daily basis when I do my daily upkeep and find everything in healthy, working order. I hope you get there soon.
:BEER
Tonites update tank is slightly clearer
Ran all tests, wrote me down and went to see Tom @ Lfs to re re-run there.
Sal 1.024
Ph 8.2/8.2
Trates and trites0/0
Carbonate hardness 8/8 dkh
Calcium 520+
I have not checked magnesium(test kit) but heck it’s new with reef crystals.
So, I have now been 2 days not trying to micro adjust ph with aquavitro 8.4 and balance
I added the appropriate reef builder 2days ago. I’m not touching it again!
Take away, good patience with critteraddions/management, can’t say the same for the cocktail I was creating.
At least I can confirm very consistent results with the API tests
Thanks for putting up with me, heck, just trying to do itright eh?