[quote=“Marchingbandjs, post:3, topic:2740”]
So this group, while involved with saving sea turtle, wales, and trees, also supports human regulation. Get this, on valentines day they started their “Condoms for Endangered Species” program. They hope that by slowing human growth the environment will be saved. So On V-day they handed out 100k condoms, and each wrapper said the following “Wrap with care, save the polar bear.” And all my respect went out the window. I mean 100k out of what 6-8 billion now. While, i wish i had seen them because free stuff is amazing, why would you do this? Controlling humans? REALLY![/quote]
Why are you surprised? When a society holds the sanctity of human life in low regard, this is going to be the outcome.
Another thing i did not like about this edition was the article on Global Warming. Its a marine magazine and, while yes there is some mention of marine animals, and it is partially relevent, this article seems like a more political movement, and some of the phrases in it makes you feel like and idiot if you are against global warming. There is little representation of the opposition, and there are insults and sarcastic remarks thrown at the opposition. Very sloppy in my opinion.
So far other than that article very interesting discussion of power, and lighting.
If anyone wants to check out the new edition i can bring mine to the next meeting.
well, that part is true,. the biggest danger to the reefs and ecosystems is the growing human population and all the resources we use. which is rising, per capita. 6.8Billion now heading to 9B by 2050. but their effort wont do diddly sqwat to slow it down. Our carbon footprint is doing the dirty work to the reefs. warming and acidification. and inspite of all the hoopla about carbon trading and kyoto, the world still pumps out more GHGs every year. the arctic circle thawing and releasing more methane is a sign we are driving the world to a tipping point. triggering a greater wave of GHGs, and warming to come. We just aren’t making enough progress on reducing the total carbon footprint. what gains some countries make per capita, is overwhelmed by the population growth each year. 70-80 million more people each year. all burning some fossil fuels and eating lots of fish.
More people, more stuff. 65 years ago during WWII the world population was 2.2 Billion. today 3 times that at 6.8 Billion. we are becoming a victim of our own success. thats a lot of bad pressure on the oceans and reefs. Coral collection and importing bans may soon be irrelavent. Its a good time to start a frag farm.
[quote=“Marchingbandjs, post:2, topic:2750”]
Another thing i did not like about this edition was the article on Global Warming. Its a marine magazine and, while yes there is some mention of marine animals, and it is partially relevent, this article seems like a more political movement, and some of the phrases in it makes you feel like and idiot if you are against global warming. There is little representation of the opposition, and there are insults and sarcastic remarks thrown at the opposition. Very sloppy in my opinion.
So far other than that article very interesting discussion of power, and lighting.
If anyone wants to check out the new edition i can bring mine to the next meeting.[/quote]
there is nothing political about denying global warming just ignorance or economic gain.
You look at our climate patterns over the past hundred to two hundred years (how long we have been tracking weather patterns) and obviously before that, there are noticeable climate changes. You have someone like Al Gore say, “the climate is going to change!” and the world goes upside down.
Don’t get me wrong that we need to take care of our environment (especially those of us taking corals and such from the ocean) but there is nothing that we could have done/nothing that will ever be done to stop the natural climate cycles from occurring lol.
And thank you for taking the Religion out, rather offensive to those of us who have a strong faith.
what is a joke is continuing to call it what it is not. the climate shifts naturally, but not at the pace it is not occurring. ask an inuit whose ice has gone, whose caribou have moved, ask a maldivian whose island is falling prey to rising waters. ask a reputable scientist. but denying that it’s happening and laughingly saying that our snowy winter is proof is just whistling past the graveyard. in reality, this winter absolutely proves its existence. there is more turbulence in the atmosphere, more reason for the climate [not simply the east coast’s weather] to be altered.
it’s not cyclical when there is more co2 in the atmosphere than ever before, by a factor of 10,000, as shown in ice core samples. it’s manmade.
and sorry about the religion comments, now gone.
I agree that global warming is happening just like it has all through its history. I also believe that we will have another ice age in the next 20k years. Global warming is natural. Are humans speeding up this cycle, yes in a way, but the earth with cope and evolve, and come back down as it always does. The only reason this cycle of global warming is getting so much hype is because its the first time in human existence that we can noticbly see the change which happens over 10’s of thousands of years. Yes we are speeding it up, will it be a problem in the long run, i doubt it.
One thing i would like to point out that seems to be getting confused is this: a shift in global climate does not mean the end of the planet. You do not have to believe that humans are contributing to this specific phenomenon. The fact that is more important, and one you should believe, is the same industrial practices contributing excess amounts of CO2 are destroying our planet in the process. If you truly believe that human industrialization is not the primary factor in the destruction of our planet(IE atmosphere, oceans, forests, ecosystems, wildlife, etc,) then i feel sorry for you and am truly suspect of any institution that afforded you an education.
The reality is that many of the “solutions” for “global warming” are also solutions for ensuring that we live this planet intact for generations to come.
Yes, there are natural cycles. We study and understand them pretty well. and then there are man made inputs overlayed on top of that. the effect can be to either diminish or reinforce the cycles. The study and forecasting of these effects are purely academic. What we choose to do about them, how and when is a politcal decision. We shouldn’t confuse the two. It’s quite evident we can have both good science and poor judgment at the same time. Especially when poiltics and money are involved. Carbon is big business, and it makes us feel good too, for the time being.
The Earths biosphere reacts the same way to key changes, regardless if its from natural sources or man made. We are currently in an extended solar sunspot minimum and the earths 25,000 year cycle of precession on its axis, and orbital shift Should be making the earth cool for a few thousand years. But we are still warming, thanks to GHGs and other man made inputs. Our inputs are overiding the natural cycles.
This is not unprecedented in history. We cut back on sulphur emmisions because the acid rain was harming our rivers, food supply and personal health, not to mention pealing the paint off our homes. I spent every summer as a kid repainting our pealing house with good toxic oil based paints. The early 20th century sulphur dioxide emmissions from burning high sulphur coal and oil had a cooling effect on the climate. temporarily holding down global warming through the 50’s and 70’s. Then we reduced them to breath better, but global warming picked up.
The same effect was created by nature in 1816, the year without a summer. Mount Tambora errupted in indonesia, and dumped so much particulate ash and sulphuric acid into the air, the skys around the world turned red, the sun was blocked and we froze all summer long. http://www.centuryinter.net/tjs11/jean/tambora.htm
The volcano was a one shot deal, the effect wore off after a few years. but we emit every day, every year, with no end in sight. Not so much cooling H2SO4 anymore, but warming CO2, CH4 and all the ozone depleting gases too. the warming goes on.
I like to think of the climate like a 60’s Lava lamp. Turned off, it just sits there nice and calm at ambient temperature, with smooth even layers. But turn on the heating lights, and things get more interesting. layers bubbling, and mixing things up, all while the whole thing gets warmer to the touch.
Yes, we are having a rarer colder than normal winter in the northern hemisphere, But south of the equator it has been even hotter than normal. Record heat waves in Rio, and Australia and droughts, while state sized chunks of antarctica continue to break off.
That’s why its called GLOBAL warming, not LOCAL warming. we have to look at the whole picture.
And then decide what kind of future we want. But time is running out. These things dont change course quickly or easily. We can destroy our life support system long before it changes course. and we could be mostly… gone, somday. Again, the earth adapts and evolves to preserve the most life, just not every form. ergo that world stat on 25,000 species that have gone extinct since the begining of this year.
[quote=“Jcling, post:5, topic:2750”]
Global warming is a joke.[/quote]
i can cite hundreds of peer reviewed scientific papers from the past 35 years saying global warming is very real and indeed not a joke. if you’ve ever collected fossils along the CD canal you would know that for the majority of earths geologic period Delaware was under water. i feel some people will be in denial until the Delmarva peninsula becomes a series of islands once again. needless to say i’m not purchasing beach front property anytime soon.
We are supposedly an intelligent race, us humans. After reading all the comments, whether you believe in global warming or not, the real JOKE is simply, even without all the proof and no matter what you believe is the cause, shouldn’t WE All want to make this a better place to live, cleaner, more effecient, and safer for the future. Unfortunately, us humans have one fault standing in the way of making this all possible…greed
Well said, John. There’s plenty each of us can do individually in our own lives towards that end.
For everyone contributing:
Even scientists disagree on global warming, even reputable ones, Paul.
There’s no reason that we, as a community of reefers, cannot also each hold and express our own individual opinions.
And, if we gave an ounce of thought to it prior to hitting “Post”, I think we could even express those opinions without some of the disparaging remarks made thus far in this thread.
Whether we want to argue semantics or not, and primary reasons, end outcomes, etc… We should obviously want to make cleaner practices in all that we do. Cleaner Farming, industry as a whole, and do something about some of the (Poop) we see on TV. Watch the shows on Discovery… swamp forests cut down, marshes destroyed (extremely hard to restore and extremely important to our environment), rain forests, the deadliest catch… (how much waste and (Poop) they put into our poor ocean), along with plastic reserves floating in currents down in the pacific. Crazy stuff, mostly done by big business to save a dime (not even speaking of the practices that are looked over like the biopolymer plant on 273 that releases its death every night, and if the wind blows your way you get the “Newark smell.” And don’t get me started on Delaware City, just speaking locally.
Move outside of this and you see the islands and such down in the indio-pacific that cut down many mangrove forests so that we can go our vacations and see the beautiful beaches. Horrible for them when tsunami’s come, and horrible for the fact that these forests cant filter all of the (Poop) that comes from the mainland into the ocean.
Look at China… Crazy emissions. Not even going to delve into that topic.
Fact is we all need to make changes in the way that we live, whether those previous lifestyles are due to the desire to save a buck, laziness, or just sheer stupidity. I agree that if someone is arguing against these things and MANY more things needing to be fixed that have not been listed, they are ignorant and silly. Still the political realm that is global warming is a joke. It is still very much a money maker, and many things need to be done in order to make true change and not try and “make our change” through cute language and ideology. Things must be done, if people are worried, make the changes you can, and urge who ever you think will help to make as much of a change as possible. We as a country, and larger scale global society have created this mess along with MANY others… if we start to change some of the many bad practices that we follow, we will see many changes for the environment and our own global populations. (Lots of health issues will benefit. The very fish we eat out of the oceans we fish from are so polluted its crazy, yet instead of eating less, imposing a ban, or doing something of this nature to improve these conditions, people will say, “make sure to limit your fish consumption b/c that mercury ain’t to good for ya!”)
We could list for ever, and we could take menial stabs till our faces turn blue, we could sit on a forum and cry about it and focus this whole topic off a Coral magazine, not peer-reviewed journals with intelligent ideas as to what to do, but as we said, bringing stuff like religion into this mess is Crazy to do, and so is questioning someones education or his/her qualifications to be at any certain educational institute lol. (Me for one decided not to drink away my college education away with parties every day, and drugs all night lol)
And REMEMBER Scholarly Articles from Peer Reviewed Journals (if you have access) from accredited research institutes. Pop Sci journals/magazines sound cute, but they are just that: cute, silly, and entertainment not scientifically releveant.
And remember Correlation does not imply causation.
it looks like everyone is in general agreement about at least one thought: our negative impact on the environment and our responsibility to do more to reduce our impact.
its something that has been very important to me for a long time and a passion that ill effect the way i lead this club. we have started small with the bulb collection program but there is a lot more that i would like for us to do as a collective in the future.
Huh. I’m with John and Ted. If you want to speak with empassioned enthusiasm about topics which people may or may not share your ideas, do so with respect. Remember that all the other members read what you wrote, not what you meant.
Well i stand by my post if these secondary comments are directed at my post.
Respecting someone’s opinion and respecting ignorance is two different things. If someone throws their fast food garbage out their window everytime they eat because they believe that what we do does not impact the environment its not an opinion a will respect. Everyone is free to have an opinion but i certainly dont have to respect it or embrace or do nothing to change it. Some people have the opinion that some races are not equal to their own. Some people believe women are property. They are free to have their opinions and i am free to not respect them, their opinions, and their intelligence.
[quote=“Jcling, post:13, topic:2750”]
And REMEMBER Scholarly Articles from Peer Reviewed Journals (if you have access) from accredited research institutes. Pop Sci journals/magazines sound cute, but they are just that: cute, silly, and entertainment not scientifically releveant.
And remember Correlation does not imply causation. [/quote]
if you were versed in the scientific fields; you would know scientific american is a preeminent scientific magazine based on peer reviewed journals, hence the citation from the journal science. FMC is releasing harmless water vapor from their bio polymer manufacturing. the only conflict between scientists are between those on the payroll of certain corporations and scientists producing contradictory data.
[quote=“logans_daddy, post:16, topic:2750”]
If someone throws their fast food garbage out their window every time they eat because they believe that what we do does not impact the environment its not an opinion a will respect.[/quote]
I don’t see any implications, either implicit or explicit that state the idea above. (No one said this) And to add, all postings should be read, not simply one which might have been misconstrued or misunderstood.
I would hope that people are able to do more than just read words, but rather develop an understanding as to what people think aside from their emotion.
And to the FMC plant, there is more than just water vapor being dispensed in the late hours at night, Hence the sulfur smells and other odd odors that come from the plant.
[quote=“Jcling, post:18, topic:2750”]
And to the FMC plant, there is more than just water vapor being dispensed in the late hours at night, Hence the sulfur smells and other odd odors that come from the plant. [/quote]
i’ve been in newark 5 years and have yet to smell anything sulfur. i wouldn’t put it past a company to emit sulfurous compounds, but i haven’t smelled it. i’ve also been involved with Delaware river keepers in the past and haven’t noticed any localized acidification in white clay creek. you could be smelling pollution from the freight trains which occasionally release chemicals from their storage tanks.
I’m not sure, I know that Lindsay is the one who told me about the smells when I got down here 4 years ago and she thought that they came from the plant as well. She had a conversation with one of her environmental biology professors at the University of Delaware (whether everyone thinks they are creditable or not) and he agreed with her that the smells could very well be coming from the plant. We have been wanting to find out how to look into the matter together, but every avenue we have looked down requires big titles behind your name, or an age requirement to be noticed/heard.
I would like to recognize that my first post might have given people the incorrect opinion as to what I feel about the general climate of our environment, and our impact. I would urge those who might be focusing on my first post to read the second post. If there are still misunderstandings, (even if there are not, people will still focus on the first misunderstood post) I am more than willing to clear them up.
If I may, I also expected a little more from the officers of our club.
