I need to dose Mg again and after testing more than twice (salifert) found my levels a little low. After checking a couple of reef chemistry calculators I need to add more than the entire contents of the jar I just bought. (Seachem reef advantage Mg - dry) This has worked in the past well but is a bunch of crap to dissolve in ro. Does anyone else have a better suggestion? I hear magflake is the strongest, least expensive way to increase magnesium in a reef tank. Any thoughts? :
: Does any one use this and where is a good supplier? I have been able to keep Ca, and alk in check with relative ease but find the Mg low often. The best I can figure is over time the additives like kalkwasser that are low in Mg just start to add up. Is there any other reason this could be an issue?
Seachems advantage Mg is not much different than the diy mix. mostly a blend of magnesium chloride hexahydrate( MgCl2.6H2O) and Magnesium sulfate heptahydrate (MgSO4.7h2O)/ AKA mag flake and epsoms salts. as you can see from their molecular weight, they are only about 12% and 10% perspectively Magnesium by weight. so that’s why it takes a lot of mag supplement to bump the level a little. The hydrated crystaline salts are dang near half water by weight to begin with.
i use the Randy Farley mix which is 5 parts mag flake and 3 parts epsom salts. that is a proportional mix of chlorides and sulfates. which keeps those levels in ratio while also raising Mg levels.
What is your Mg reading? If your Ca and Alk are in order then usually your Mg is OK. It might be prudent to check it/have it checked with another test kit.
What salt mix are you using? How ofter are you doing water changes?
I use the brs mix and have so much extra if you bring a container I’ll give you a gallon of it. I have used 5 gallons of alk and calcium and only 1/4 of the magnesium. It’s cheap too.
[quote=“Downbeach, post:3, topic:5622”]
What is your Mg reading? If your Ca and Alk are in order then usually your Mg is OK. It might be prudent to check it/have it checked with another test kit.
What salt mix are you using? How ofter are you doing water changes?[/quote]
Mg is 1200 ppm. Ca is 420 - 450 ppm. Alk is usually 9.6 - 12.5 DKH, (usually 9.6 when I check it and dose to 12.5 or so using seachem reef buffer) I did check the Salifert Mg kit to another kit, I think it was a Red Sea back when I got it 6 months ago, the results were within 20 ppm. Water changes are 18% every 2-3 weeks. I don’t think this is the issue, but I could be wrong.
[quote=“kaptken, post:2, topic:5622”]
Seachems advantage Mg is not much different than the diy mix. mostly a blend of magnesium chloride hexahydrate( MgCl2.6H2O) and Magnesium sulfate heptahydrate (MgSO4.7h2O)/ AKA mag flake and epsoms salts. [/quote]
Yeah, after looking at the ingredients (Magnesium sulfate & Sodium chloride) I thought, isn’t this the same as the $2 big carton of epson salt (magnesium sulfate U.S.P.) I have under my bathroom sink? :: But alas I am not a chemist and don’t have that knowledge at my disposal. So I ask you guys out there. Is it?..
I don’t quite understand the relationship of chlorides and sulfates and why it is necessary to balance the levels when making a Mg additive. Kapt, do you have more info on this?
[quote=“dunk, post:4, topic:5622”]
I use the brs mix and have so much extra if you bring a container I’ll give you a gallon of it.[/quote]
I just may take you up on that. I understand Mg level readings can vary with salinity. (the fine print on test kit instructions) Is this due to the Mg in the salt mix, or does the reading change in proportion to the specific gravity? I am currently at 1.024. If I raised to 1.025-6 would it make that much of a difference?
Scott. we have some good articles right here on the DRC website Reef Links:
http://delreefclub.org/index.php?option=com_weblinks&Itemid=23
and you can always get them all at RC Chemistry forum archives.
you dont have to be a chemistry nerd to make it work nice and easy. The reef chemistry calculator does that for you. you just plug in your stats and get the answer.
Randys recipe is simple. in solution he adds 5 cups of mag flake and 3 cups of epsom salt in a one gallon jug. then add enough water to fill the jug. it wont all dissolve, so you could pour it in a porcelain pot and heat and stir to make it all dissolve. but on cooling some slush may settle out of solution. because it is a saturated solution or a bit more. no problem you can just shake before pouring and use it. the calculator tells you how many ounces of the mix to add to raise your mag to desired level.
I got tired of all that mixing. so i just calculate it down to dry measures of the two salts. mag flake and epsom salt. and just stir that into some makeup water. its pretty easy math. there are
128 oz in a gallon
8 cups of salt is 64 fluid oz, and there are 2 tablespoons in an oz.
so 8 cups of salt is 128 tablespoons of salt added to water to make 128 oz of solution.
Hey! That’s one tablespoon of salt mixture per ounce!
the salt ratio is roughly 2/3 mag flake and 1/3 epsom salt.
there are 3 teaspoons per tablespoon.
therefore for each ounce of randy’s mag solution the calculator says to add, you add 2 teaspoons of mag flake and 1 teaspoon of epsom salt. that will be close enough for balance on big adjustments like 100 ppm or more.
so for example, if the calculator says add 27 oz of mag solution, that would mean 27 tablespoons of Mg salt mix. 2/3s of 27 is 18 tablespoons of Mag Flake(1 1/8 cup) , and the remaining 1/3 would be 9 tablespoons of epsom salts(1/2 cup plus 1 tablespoon). so just add the dry salts to a gallon of make up RO water, mix and pour slowly into sump.
Easy Peezy!
That’s what i do.
What is your salinity? What do you measure it with?
What salt mix are you using?
At 1200 your Mg isn’t bad, although 1350 would be better. Check your make up water, you may have a batch of salt mix with less than optimal Mg.
Thanks Kapt, very helpful.
[quote=“Downbeach, post:7, topic:5622”]
What is your salinity? What do you measure it with?
What salt mix are you using?
At 1200 your Mg isn’t bad, although 1350 would be better. Check your make up water, you may have a batch of salt mix with less than optimal Mg.[/quote]
I use Reef crystals, I checked the Levels (when I first opened the bucket now at bottom) and Mg was 1290. 1.024 using refractometer, auto temp compensating. (calibrated 1 month ago) I ran into this a few times before, I was just astonished of the quantity of stuff needed to raise 100ppm.
http://reef.diesyst.com/flashcalc/flashcalc.html
Has anyone else had problems using reef chemistry calculator? when you click calculate, the thing gives a weird screen. I noticed this started about 3 weeks ago with a few different calculators, all run the same program.
you are right. the flash version gives a blank gray screen on the clock. but i use the TRADITIONAL version of the calculator. works fine.
http://reef.diesyst.com/chemcalc/chem_calc3.html
flash must have a hiccup.
If you boost your SG from 1.024 to 1.026(35ppt), your Mg will increase as well. As long as you keep your SG at 35ppt, and do regular WC’s your Mg in the DT should stay between 1250 and 1350, and wouldn’t need any supplementation.
[quote=“Downbeach, post:10, topic:5622”]
If you boost your SG from 1.024 to 1.026(35ppt), your Mg will increase as well. As long as you keep your SG at 35ppt, and do regular WC’s your Mg in the DT should stay between 1250 and 1350, and wouldn’t need any supplementation.[/quote]
Any idea how much of an increase it would be going from 1.024 to 1.026? Seems like it would be very little when you think of the Mg added with the mix. The issue I found is that kalkwasser has a lower level of Mg than the salt mix. I cant really afford to do weekly changes (time & money) and nitrates are in check. So I just use supplements to keep things growing well. At $3 a pound of kalk its way cheaper & easier than mixing new water and doing a change. But Low magnesium is the draw back. What would you consider “regular changes”? Even at every 2 weeks, I need to dose Ca and alk regularly (2x a week at least). I started keeping more stony corals that are growing well. But as always, thanks for all the help.
[quote=“Downbeach, post:10, topic:5622”]
As long as you keep your SG at 35ppt, and do regular WC’s your Mg in the DT should stay between 1250 and 1350, and wouldn’t need any supplementation.[/quote]
I’m not on here often enough to know if you have seen his tank in person, but a tank full of stony corals and a softy reef can be completely different. It’s close to impossible for water changes to entirely maintain the levels given enough time.
Let’s use over simple numbers for this example. Let’s say you want to maintain your Alkalinity at 10dkH and if you don’t supplement anything in a weeks time your levels drop 2dKH. Let’s also say that your salt mix is at 10dKH as well.
Week one 10dKH
Week two 8dKH (you notice the levels slipping and do a 50% water change, which you really shouldn’t do as that is too much of a change at a time, but it makes the numbers simple. Half the water is at 8dKH, half at 10dKH, so the mixed solution in your tank is 9dKH)
Week two after the water change 9dKH.
Week three level dropped to 7dKH, you do another massive 50% water change and the result is 8.5dKH.
Week four level dropped to 6.5dKH. You do another massive 50% water change and the result is 8.25dKH.
The same happens when animals absorb Magnesium, Calcium, Iron, Potassium, Copper, Strontium, Phosphates, Nitrogen, Iodine, and many other elements. You should NOT simply throw any of these elements in the tank with out understanding them further, but to the point:
Water change are the best thing you can do for your aquarium, but in order to maintain a healthy reef aquarium in the long run supplementation can not be avoided forever and water change alone will not do the trick. If you plan to have a healthy tank in the long run it is best to begin to read up now and learn about supplementing your tank.
[quote=“Gordonious, post:12, topic:5622”]
[quote=“Downbeach, post:10, topic:5622”]
As long as you keep your SG at 35ppt, and do regular WC’s your Mg in the DT should stay between 1250 and 1350, and wouldn’t need any supplementation.[/quote]
I’m not on here often enough to know if you have seen his tank in person, but a tank full of stony corals and a softy reef can be completely different. It’s close to impossible for water changes to entirely maintain the levels given enough time.
Let’s use over simple numbers for this example. Let’s say you want to maintain your Alkalinity at 10dkH and if you don’t supplement anything in a weeks time your levels drop 2dKH. Let’s also say that your salt mix is at 10dKH as well.
Week one 10dKH
Week two 8dKH (you notice the levels slipping and do a 50% water change, which you really shouldn’t do as that is too much of a change at a time, but it makes the numbers simple. Half the water is at 8dKH, half at 10dKH, so the mixed solution in your tank is 9dKH)
Week two after the water change 9dKH.
Week three level dropped to 7dKH, you do another massive 50% water change and the result is 8.5dKH.
Week four level dropped to 6.5dKH. You do another massive 50% water change and the result is 8.25dKH.
The same happens when animals absorb Magnesium, Calcium, Iron, Potassium, Copper, Strontium, Phosphates, Nitrogen, Iodine, and many other elements. You should NOT simply throw any of these elements in the tank with out understanding them further, but to the point:
Water change are the best thing you can do for your aquarium, but in order to maintain a healthy reef aquarium in the long run supplementation can not be avoided forever and water change alone will not do the trick. If you plan to have a healthy tank in the long run it is best to begin to read up now and learn about supplementing your tank. [/quote]
This is all true but we were talking specifically about Mg. My point is that if your make up water is mixed to a SG of 1.024 you are already starting at a lower levels of Mg . I think the analysis is printed right on the box/bucket of salt mix. If you mix it to a SG of 1.021 your Ca should be 370 and Mg 1095, 1.023 Ca @ 405 and Mg @ 1200, 1.026 Ca @ 455 and Mg @ 1345.
So, in conclusion, before he decides whether he needs to add any Mg to the system, my suggestion is to slowly raise the Salinity in the DT to 1.026 and monitor it, before making that decision. And again, if it stays between 1250 and 1350 there would be no real need do any supplementation.
Jon is indirectly stateing The Law OF Diminishing Returns. its like the fly jumping half the distance to the wall, each time. he will never really get there. but in this case, the gap widens a little with each water change.
Uhhh, there is no Magnesium in Kalwasser solution. any Mg will be at the bottom in the insoluable sludge as an impurity. Kalwasser solution is Calcium Hydroxide solution at PH 12.3. it provides Calcium ions for coral and hydroxide ions for PH buffer. No Magnesium.
Here are a few article that are worth a good read: :
:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-03/rhf/index.php
[quote=“kaptken, post:14, topic:5622”]
Uhhh, there is no Magnesium in Kalwasser solution. any Mg will be at the bottom in the insoluable sludge as an impurity. Kalwasser solution is Calcium Hydroxide solution at PH 12.3. it provides Calcium ions for coral and hydroxide ions for PH buffer. No Magnesium. [/quote]
I for sure am not a chemist by any stress of the imagination, but I believe this is a debated topic. Brightwell sells a product called Kalk+2.(Brightwell Aquatics - Kalk+2) If this is any different from other Kalkwasser additives, or if he is simply capitalizing, or if it is even possible for Magnesium in a usable form to enter the aquarium in a usable form and notable quantity seems to be debatable. I personally do not know, just wanted to point out it may be possible there is some, but likely not enough to be a balanced solution.
Schewww let’s keep it simple add magnesium lol. Salinity is lower than average but if you want to keep it low that’s fine. If all livestock is doing well and you want 1.024 that’s fine. Mg is the least used easily tested element once you get it there it’ll stay with minimal dosing. I add 180ml of 2 part every day and about 20ml of mg a month.
you are right Jon. you’re not much of a chemist. and neither am I, But Brightwells isn’t straight Kalwasser, or calcium Hydroxide made just from limestone. its kalk with probably added Magnesium chloride and Strontium Chloride. the chlorides can stay in solution with the hydroxide. regular kalk shouldnt have any real amount of magnesium in the solution. even high magnesium carbonate content lime will precipitate out the magnesium as insouluble magnesium hydroxide as sludge on the bottom of your bucket.
you can skip down to the section. Experimental results: what is present in limewater?
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/12/chemistry
so even though a low quality lime might be half magnesium carbonate in dry form, it will all precip out when mixed in water with the calcium hydroxide. whick means you have to add more of the lime to make saturated lime water. and let it settle longer.
The brightwell mix would probably make up for the small amount of Mg that corals actually use to grow their carbonate structure, but wouldnt really budge a low SW Mg level at all. Im sure thats what it is designed for. major adjustments to Mg level still need large amounts of MgCl and MgSO4 addition to raise it 100 ppm.
I didn’t realize the fuss this was going to cause. Everyone has been a great help. I think I’m going to try the Randy’s recipe. I found a product by Red Sea, Reef foundation ABC+ -
Bulk Reef Supply - Search Results for Red Sea Reef Foundation ABCSupplement%28Ca_Sr_KH_Mg_K_Br%29_All_In_One_Individual_Bottles-Red_Sea-RS22007-FIADAOSB-vi.html
Has anyone used this? It seems simple, not a killer price, and takes the work out of dosing so much different stuff. Is it too good to be true?
no, I havent tried it, but unless they give you a gallon or two of the Mg supplement it wont budge your level much. like i first said, Mg salts are only 10-12% Mg. salts in water are half that. and it takes a lot to bump the numbers. this kit is for make up for consumption, not bumping the numbers much for low salt water mix content . its like vitamins, you get a little, but cant make a meal of em.