Hey all! has anyone else seen this recent article on Reef Lighting! Its pretty good, and pretty long. Im just getting into it. But it looks like real good info for the DIYer light building people. and anyone just choosing bulbs.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/10/aafeature
so, its gonna take me a while to digest this one. hope yo find it interesting too.
I Might have to read it several times to get the best feel for it. but we can read it together.
thanks ken- this should kill a couple of hours at work tomorrow… just glanced through and it seems pretty interesting, but being very ANTI-LED myself, I find flaws in their financial analysis of the cost savings of LED…
I had some more time to read through the article… pretty interesting, but I still stand by my above statement-Im anti LED, and frankly I think their cost savings analysis is total bunk. Ive run the numbers again and again. making some liberal assumptions in favor of LED I usually come out to a few hundred dollars in savings over the course of 10yrs. not nearly enough for me to make the change. to each his own though.
I’m not sure what type of lights your compairing the LED’s to ? but if it’s T5’s the saving is not as dramatic but for people like myself with larger tanks and were running MH the saving is quite substantial. I have dropped my electric bill almost $200 a month, the corals are growing good and have very nice color,maybe not as fast of growth compairing to the MH but not bad either.
My 180 gal tank had 3 M/H lights on it before I switched to LEDs. Just in the first year I have saved the lower monthly electric bill and the $69 a bulb for the M/H, that is a saving of $207, just in bulbs. Add in the factor of the heat emitted from M/H, this is a win win situation.
If saving money and lowering the use of fossil fuel, by using less electricity is not enough to make you LED friendly, then keep spending more money being ANTI-LED.
Just my :TWOCENTS LOL!! :
:
Well i think its a good article discussing spectrum and intensity regardless of the source. It is good on the needs of chlorophyl and the colorants. Most ready made LEDs have basic white and blue, but lack the good low end violet . Some do have it in various amounts. but they are still a little left of the mark. not bad. getting better. Of course the DIYer can sellect his own spectrum LEDs and play around with them.
T5s come in a wide variety and colors and do work pretty good. As this recent RB article highlights, a nice 900 gallon reef tank lit with 32 T5 54w bulbs.
http://reefbuilders.com/2012/10/26/asjan-reef-slovakia/#more-64257
At 12 hours a day, thats about $75 a month to run this tank’s lights at our electric rates. and then bulbs once a year or so. It’s 9 feet long and 3 1/2 x 3 1/2 feet wide and deep. What would a decent LED system cost to cover this tank?
You can check out the tank build thread here:
Hmmm? Do you think this tank is in a Polka Bar?
Not as much as the cost of having to pay for 32 T5 bulbs every year, plus the savings on less energy usage.
It’s a hard one, but with that depth you would want to use canon style light or DIY high powered multi-LED emiters such as what Bill is using.
Just tripple what Bill is using.
[quote=“Hudzon, post:8, topic:5946”]
It’s a hard one, but with that depth you would want to use canon style light or DIY high powered multi-LED emiters such as what Bill is using.
Just tripple what Bill is using.[/quote]
I. Agree with Frank my LEDs are working great but as wide as my tank is if I was running solely on those LEDs I need 6 to do the tank (that tank would need at least 9) which may happen but I still would need supplement for at least the 420 so the VHOs I’ve added seem to have the whole spectrum covered the whole tank is lit quite well. I’ve been reading about the 420 LEDs like Frank has but need to see some more positive info before I do away with the VHOs completely
The tank could be in a “Night Club”. I don’t see anyone in our “club” going to this size any time soon. ::
Well maybe Bill after he sells me his 300. :
:
I really enjoy these threads. I find that proponents of LED are really fanatic about them, but if you really do the math and make numerous assumptions it just doesn’t add up for most systems. I have not run the numbers for a tank larger than 120g, and maybe they work then, but for a 120 as the example it doesn’t. if you like LED that’s great, I’m not trying to convince anyone, I’m just saying that articles like this that make some extreme assumptions are disingenuous.
Lets run through the example making more realistic assumptions on a 120—
First the assumptions:
A1)I’m assuming that LEDs actually work-ie grow corals. I think that debate has been reasonable closed at this point.
A2)that you buy a LED system off the shelf. For this example I will run the numbers using this fixture: http://www.hellolights.com/48-inch-AquaIllumination-sol-4-module-led-lighting-system.aspx
Using this fixture price of $1700.00.
A3)that LEDs will actually last 10 years. I personally don’t think they will but hey, ill give them the benefit of the doubt for this example.
A4)since I’m making the above assumptions in LEDs favor, I do my cost analysis based on T5s that I have bought- I picked up a 6bulb retro fit for $200. These deals are all around now that everyone is on the LED bandwagon. I also bought a 2x 250MH retro for $200 as well.
A5) that T5 bulbs are replaced 2x a year. Frankly I only replace once a year, but I know everyone will balk at that.
A6)my power rate is 12c per KWH.
A7)a photoperiod of 8hrs. Most of the LED “analysis†uses a 12hr period, which I have never run.
So the numbers:
The fixtures:
LED $1700 T5 $200
Power consumption
LED: 8hrs/D * 365D/Yr * 75W * .00012w/hr * 10yrs = $262.8
T5: 8hrs/D * 365D/Yr * 6bulbs*54W * .00012C/Whr * 10yrs = $1107.26
Bulb replacement:
LED: $0
T5: 6bulbs*2times a year 10yrs $25perbulb=$3000
Total:
LED:1700+262.8+0=$1962.80
T5:200+1107.26+3000=3270.06
For a savings of 1307.26 over 10 years… or $130.26 a year.
Now on top of all that I personally can’t stand the way that LEDs look. That’s totally personal opinion, but for all the work of switching to a new lighting system, to save 130$ a year I will pass. Even more realistic for me is that I switch my bulbs yearly. If you run the numbers by that it comes out to a savings of $84 dollars a year. Not to mention that most bulbs can also be bought for less than $25.
No thanks….
Even more amusing to me is that most people I know who run LED also supplement with actinic. Since the above mentioned VHO actinic supplementation lets add that number in. using a 2x110w VHO actinic retrofit:
VHO power: 8hrs/D * 365D/Yr * 2bulbs110W * .00012C/Whr * 10yrs = $770.88
VHO bulb replacement: 2bulbs2times a year 10yrs $20perbulb=$800
Adding the VHO usage in:
Total:
LED+VHO:1700+262.8+0+770.88+800=$3533.65
T5:200+1107.26+3000=3270.06
Now T5s are cheaper.
Like I said from the beginning, I’m really not trying to convince anyone. If you like LED than that’s great. Personally I don’t. my main point is that if the argument for LED is that you will save money its just not true.
Oh, And one more assumption:
LED no longer heats up your tank.
That’s great except for the fact that you now need to add more power via heaters to keep your tank heated. Measuring this would be interesting, but for the sake of argument above, I’m negating this since I have no numbers to quantify.
I would personally bet that this additional power would further break the argument for LED, the exception being if you are running a chiller. Frankly though I think running a chiller is a design flaw to the system… but now we are getting into the weeds…
Well you really show how LED’s are more expensive and you definitely have convinced yourself. But I wonder how the example would pan out not using the high end LED fixtures, let’s say a cheaper fixture or a DIY model.
:BB) Just a thought
Not fair assumptions at all LED $1700 T5 $200 you are taking a high-end LED with a built-in controller and comparing it to a retro I think if you want to make that comparison you need to use a new high-end T5 system with a built-in controller like this 6x54W Dimmable SunPower T5 High-Output Fixture w/ Controller @ $750.00 or a 48 Inch 2x150 Watt HQI around $750.00 also
You mentioned the heat issue that come with MH, mostly, I think that cost is wagered against the need for a chiller, so if you add in the cost of a chiller around $700.00 to the system you are looking a whole different picture.
You can get OK led systems now for a 48" 120 tank for $500.00
OK… for the sake of argument let’s take a $500 LED fixture. I have not seen one that cheap even Diy’ed, but here we go.
LED:500+262.8+0=$762.80
T5:200+1107.26+3000=3270.06
Or $250.72 a year
Or with VHO:
LED+VHO:500+262.8+0+770.88+800=$2333.68
T5:200+1107.26+3000=3270.06
Or $93.64 a year.
Again, if you like LED, great! I still don’t think the savings is mind blowing. Honestly, if you are running a 120 or greater, adding $250 a year is pretty much nominal. There are so many other ways to save $250 a year that for me personally making the change to something I think looks bad is pointless.
Like I said from the beginning, im not trying to change minds, just pointing out that if we are strictly talking financial analysis, the numbers that articles like this advocate is misleading at best.
I myself like the look of LED a lot better then T5 as with my 6 bulb T5 I have almost total light saturation, very little shadows and almost no midtones and now with LEDs I have higher PAR/PUR values and brighter highlight, soft midtones and nice shadows under over hangs.
I would use LED even without an implied savings…
Ok
will come at this at this angle . What size tank do you have and what lights fixture are you running just so we have and idea your angle?
I would never buy a complete led fixture just for the cost $1700 maybe would do half of my tank . it would be closer to $3000 if a complete fixture was used and thats just not happening. My LED set up as a DIY set up cost $625.00 which is 3 100 watt hybrid blue/white led’s ,driver (nondimmable just because no one makes one for that big of a LED) the fan cooled heat sink and the mounting.
Large tanks in my eyes are not a 120 gallon but to each his own. johns tank being a 180 and mine being a 300, I have tried t5’s over the tank and there is not enough par throught out the tank on the bottom to maintain the whole tank front and rear side to side which my rocks are set up in the middle and there is corals front and back and clams on the rocks and sand.My tank is 6 foot x 3 foot wide x 28 inches deep and would need 5 foot t5’s and probably would be 10 of those, doing a retro with 10 with ice cap ballasts or coral vue if you purchased a new retro which over drives t5 bulbs makes them some where close to 110 watts each . I like the LED’s but if there was a more energy conserving MH I would not even consider anything else just the fact that my MH pendents which was a sunlight supply ballast and 14k phoenix bulbs, these by themselves were enough to light the whole tank and par on the bottom sand all the way in the front was 250 in the front at the glass on the sand.
Now as for power draw all of my LED's are pull 300 watts but there only pulling 2.6 amps for all 3 where the MH were pulling 3.6 per light at 250 watts per bulb.
Now with all that being said there is talk of a true VHO T5 coming and may be worth a sniff to look into but with these electronic ballast they are over driving the bulbs and typically they do not last 12 months.here’s my scenario… 12 t5’s (3ft 39 watts) x roughly $25 each totals $300…
so an $800 fixture plus $300 annually on bulbs …
…or…
what i’d do right now if i bought new lighting would be 3 of the units that matt and john HB just got… they’re about 165 or so each… so thats about $500 bucks… i havnt checked the exact prices to diy it like john’s 180 or frank, or A’s setup… but they all seem close to that ball park…
the upgrade to leds alone would pay for itself within two years of bulb purchases (one year if replaced every 6months)… not to mention the cost of that aquatic life fixture and a few bucks extra in electricity… the par bonus, the lack of heat, and i really like the look, and the shimmer of them are all bonuses over t5’s for me… but i still have longevity concerns being new technology, and especially the 420 spectrum output rendering… but the economics of it is a no brainer for me…
:TWOCENTS
don’t get me wrong bob, i’ve had great color and good growth with my t5’s in the past, but they drop off in par pretty quick after 6 months and the $ to replace them bi-yearly is crazy imho
i have to agree with every one, i think the look of t5 or vho mixed with led looks good plus to think about issues with the led components in ten years. i personally am using a lot of heaters to maintain temps now. my system is actually heating my house. I haven’t turned the heat on yet lol.
Just finished a rainy day update video, last one was about 2 months ago.
For anyone who is undecided about whether they should invest in LED fixtures, here is proof that they do indeed grow any kind of coral you may have or wish to have in your tank. This particular set of LED’s has been on my 180 gal 24 inch deep tank for over 1 year now. This should clear up any disputes whether or not LED will in fact not only make your tank look awesome with the added shimmer, but will also save you money and enjoy thriving corals.
