Rosti, I wonder if the DSB theory goes along with plenum set up theory? You said that “DSB, detritus must remain in the system and not be removed in order to complete food web of mini ecosystem”. In Plenum Secret by BoB Goeman, he said to remove detritus from sand bed and on rocks. I guess it should be the same, but different in theory maybe?
[quote=“reefman66, post:221, topic:2892”]
Rosti, I wonder if the DSB theory goes along with plenum set up theory? You said that “DSB, detritus must remain in the system and not be removed in order to complete food web of mini ecosystem”. In Plenum Secret by BoB Goeman, he said to remove detritus from sand bed and on rocks. I guess it should be the same, but different in theory maybe? [/quote]
You are correct, plenum theory is based on water flow through gravel. Plenum is setup (sandwiched) between two water columns, pressure difference on one side will force water through gravel, providing biological filtration. If detritus is not removed from the system and allowed a accumulate, it will clog up the grovel. There is specific size of grovel that is recommended, I don’t remember and need to look it up. I am sure Ken can tell you from top of his head.
DSB is based on same principle, providing biological filtration due to its very large amount of surface area, but it relies on “critters” in sand bed to deliver oxygen and nutrients to bacteria and proper levels within DSB. This is why sand grain size is so extremely important, very few “critters” will be “happy” in large grain sand bed. Detritus is the most important food source for corals and sand bed “critters”, It will not clog up DSB IF it is maintained (stocked) properly.
When i was researching which method to use I liked that a) I don’t have to put my hands in the tank in order to vacuum grovel, b) free food for corals produced by DSB = less headaches for me, all I have to do is feed fish a lot, c) I enjoy “buying live stuff” for my reef tank, so adding worms/snails, ect is a pleasure.
One note about blowing detritus of the rocks, yes you should do it if your “live rock” is no longer live, it will fuel cianobacteria in that spot. Live rock is mostly colonized by ALGAE, and in order for bacteria to colonize to provide denitrification you have to have “critters” like worms, feather dusters, copepods, amphipods, etc. deliver oxygen and nutrients within a rock. Otherwise it is just a “nutrient/phosphate” sink that leeches later on. This is why DON’T BUY USED LiVE ROCK from anybody.
Here is good read called “Live Rock As A Biological Filter: Hit Or Myth?” about live rock and what makes it live.
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rs/feature/index.php
Now, how we make it “live”, we buy “critters” and feed live phytoplankton AND we do not kill copepods no matter what the cost.
Almost correct on the plenum description Rosti. but the plenum is stagnant, no water flow through it like an under gravel filter. but ion flow by osmosis and by attraction of a charge diferential between the high orp tank water and the low orp still water in the plenum.
[quote=“kaptken, post:224, topic:2892”]
Almost correct on the plenum description Rosti. but the plenum is stagnant, no water flow through it like an under gravel filter. but ion flow by osmosis and by attraction of a charge diferential between the high orp tank water and the low orp still water in the plenum. [/quote]
Hi Ken, I have to respectfully disagree.
“The plenum (Jaubert) system, water is allowed to diffuse through the sand/gravel in a circular motion simply by virtue of the current flow that is used in the aquarium (Advective movement). With an under-gravel filter, water is powered by a pump through the sand in either a forward or a reverse current flow.”
page 37 of Marine Aquarium by Vincent Hargreaves
This is my understanding of how it works, ether way it works good!
Thanks for the info Rosti and you too Ken.
[quote=“Rosti, post:223, topic:2892”]
One note about blowing detritus of the rocks, yes you should do it if your “live rock” is no longer live, it will fuel cianobacteria in that spot. Live rock is mostly colonized by ALGAE, and in order for bacteria to colonize to provide denitrification you have to have “critters” like worms, feather dusters, copepods, amphipods, etc. deliver oxygen and nutrients within a rock. Otherwise it is just a “nutrient/phosphate” sink that leeches later on. This is why DON’T BUY USED LiVE ROCK from anybody.
Here is good read called “Live Rock As A Biological Filter: Hit Or Myth?” about live rock and what makes it live.
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rs/feature/index.php
Now, how we make it “live”, we buy “critters” and feed live phytoplankton AND we do not kill copepods no matter what the cost.[/quote]
I’m guessing that’s maybe the reason why I only have HA on the top part of my rocks where its exposed to air by your statement there Rosti. Time to add more “critters” in the tank.
[quote=“reefman66, post:226, topic:2892”]
Thanks for the info Rosti and you too Ken.
Reefman66, after talking to you at last club meeting I thought that you should do that, especially you said that you do not see any tunnels in sand bed. Try (http://www.inlandaquatics.com/DETRITIVORES.html) I used them twice now and excellent review every time. Can’t say the same for IPSF, same order twice, horrible results, will not make the same mistake third time.
Thanks Rosti. Yeah, like I told you at the meeting, I’m planning on it. Just haven’t got around to order any yet. I’ll check with inlandaquatics.
[quote=“reefman66, post:228, topic:2892”]
Thanks Rosti. Yeah, like I told you at the meeting, I’m planning on it. Just haven’t got around to order any yet. I’ll check with inlandaquatics.[/quote]
i miss inland aquatics. loved that place when I was out in Indiana.
[quote=“RCA, post:229, topic:2892”]
[quote=“reefman66, post:228, topic:2892”]
Thanks Rosti. Yeah, like I told you at the meeting, I’m planning on it. Just haven’t got around to order any yet. I’ll check with inlandaquatics.[/quote]
i miss inland aquatics. loved that place when I was out in Indiana.[/quote]
Thats is cool RCA, I hope they get their site up to date and show more of their operation and products.
yes, thats the difference, there is no water flow. its ion migration. difussion, from high concentration to low area. and also by charge. there is no flow path. its completely burried with gravel. no open pipe connections from plenum to tank water. Its dead headed.
Fascinating world of DSB, note that only less than 5% of sand is larger than 1 mm. I let it accumulate in that corner to provide more diverse “housing” for different critters.
Left column up close. Note urchin being doing a great job at eating caroline and other algae, thus keeping a balance between “Producers” and “Consumers” as described in volume 4 of AHABS.
Unreal growth rate.
Thx Casey, check this out. Kids in bed, I took a short video of the most graceful swim.
That’s awesome, I love those guys. I’ve been on the fence about making 1 or a pair of them my next and last fish purchase but I gotta get more life in my sand bed first.
Think you could shoot me some tips on populating my sand bed? I thought about doing like you did with the back corners of the tank and adding some rubble or something. When I don’t scrape the glass for a few days and it gets covered with algae I see tons of little bugs all over the glass.
[quote=“BigCase, post:236, topic:2892”]
That’s awesome, I love those guys. I’ve been on the fence about making 1 or a pair of them my next and last fish purchase but I gotta get more life in my sand bed first.
Think you could shoot me some tips on populating my sand bed? I thought about doing like you did with the back corners of the tank and adding some rubble or something. When I don’t scrape the glass for a few days and it gets covered with algae I see tons of little bugs all over the glass.[/quote]
Try http://www.inlandaquatics.com/DETRITIVORES.html (CULTURED DETRITIVORE KIT, you tank will love you for it. Let sand bed be, don’t touch it and let flow “rearrange”, to some degree, lol.
Bugs(copepods) are good, they poop little fecal pellet, which is by far the most important food source for corals in aquariums of nature reefs. SO, remove your micron sock(if you use one), as it removes all the “good stuff” produced by your reef.
Rosti,
I thinks its time for a tank tour at your house. I would love to see your aquarium up close. What say Ye?
[quote=“alemab3, post:238, topic:2892”]
Rosti,
I thinks its time for a tank tour at your house. I would love to see your aquarium up close. What say Ye?[/quote]
Sure, I would love to give tank tour, it have to be Sundays as I work all other days. LMK, when.
[quote=“kaptken, post:231, topic:2892”]
yes, thats the difference, there is no water flow. its ion migration. difussion, from high concentration to low area. and also by charge. there is no flow path. its completely burried with gravel. no open pipe connections from plenum to tank water. Its dead headed. [/quote]
Hi Ken, I really wanted to know more about plenums from a trusted source (besides what I have red) so I asked Ron Shimek about it, here is my question and his answer.
http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic115721-11-1.aspx