Rosti's Coral Reef Ecosystem

[Rosti]

[quote=“Gordonious, post:252, topic:2892”]
“THE most important component of a coral reef aquarium is a deep sand bed.”

To each their own, but I completely disagree. I’ve never ever ran one and I think I’ve done alright with out them. I also think you and Ken know what you are doing and both have a lot of background and understanding beyond the average hobbyist. A deep sand bed can spell disaster if you don’t know what you are doing and sometimes can occur even if you do know what you are doing.

Just thought I’d put my two cents in. Again Ken and Rosti both do very well with their sandbeds, but also pay attention to a slew of other details and are both very hands on hobbyist. [/quote]

Hi Jon, I was thinking for a while on how to answer to your reply. And it just hit me, I think you are falling into shallowness/hackers of “Aquarium maintenance” industry. Don’t get away from ART of Reef Keeping backed by solid scientific research. I understand that no client will pay you to maintain reef tank with properly set up DSB, so you have to give them what they want to SEE at best price. One of the moderators on reef-central has/had avatar saying “I am to stupid to keep reef tank with DSB”.

[Gordonious]

Just some feedback. I enjoy discussing these things with fellow hobbyist. Especially with well-educated, intelligent individuals with beautiful reef tanks such as you Rosti.

It may be fact that DSB can grow critters and reduce Nitrates, but is it scientific fact that you can’t run a beautiful reef tank without a DSB? It could be proven that vodka dosing can reduces Nitrates, same with sulfur denitrators, coil denitrators, and protein skimmers, but it doesn’t mean any of them are “the” most important component. Less than a year ago you yanked your skimmer off line then a month later put it back and then a month later removed it again. A little ironic a year after being wishy washy with whether or not to use one on your tank you stand so firm as it skimmerless being “the” way to go.

I just wanted to argue the point that DSB is not for everyone and I would personally never recommend one to a newby hobbyist. The majority of people playing with marine tanks I would consider newbys. This is not a simple or cheap hobby by any means and there is a constant flux of people getting in and out. I would say 90% of hobbyist have no business running a DSB. If you glance through YouTube videos and reef centrals tank of the month you’ll find many beautiful and successful aquariums and a great deal of them have shallow sand beds or bare bottom tanks.

Dr. Ron Shimek may have said, "THE most important component of a coral reef aquarium is a deep sand bed. " however how many full tank shots of his are admired by hobbyist? If a FTS of any of his tank were featured on reef centrals tank of the month people would get all chocked up about how “ugly” it is. Truth is beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If you like studying worms and other sand bed macrofauna a DSB may be for you. Just curious, what was your signature line before that? Something about those giving advice should show pictures of their tanks? And didn’t you recently argue that any individual giving advice on aquariums should show photos of their tanks? Kind of contradicts your current signature doesn’t it?

Dr. Shimek also hates how destructive fish are. He would rather, and most often does, keep a fishless system.(note I said fishless, meaning without a single fish, not fish only) He also hates hermit crabs and would never have them in a display. If Dr. Shimek were to see your tank he may comment that, “If you think the critters you see now are cool try removing all the fish for a couple of months and see what happens”. He may also tell you how unnatural it is to keep animals from different oceans together. Many of the things people admire about your tank Dr. Shimek may find very unappealing.

Many of the moderators on reef central would say if you do what you love for a living(work in the industry) you are evil and unwelcome on their forums unless you sponsor them. If I had a million dollars to spend on advertising I don’t believe I would support RC.

Food for thought.

[Gordonious]

[quote=“Rosti, post:12, topic:2892”]
Sump/refuge
Eshopps Refugium 36" x 14" x 16", 1 in refuge mud[/quote]

Just out of curiosity what type of “refuge mud” did you use? I’m getting ready to set up a new refugium in the next couple of months and I am not sure what I am going to use. I already purchased some KoraLagoon that I am considering using, but I’m open.

[Rosti]

Hi Jon, you said:
“It may be fact that DSB can grow critters and reduce Nitrates, but is it scientific fact that you can’t run a beautiful reef tank without a DSB? It could be proven that vodka dosing can reduces Nitrates, same with sulfur denitrators, coil denitrators, and protein skimmers, but it doesn’t mean any of them are “the” most important component. Less than a year ago you yanked your skimmer off line then a month later put it back and then a month later removed it again. A little ironic a year after being wishy washy with whether or not to use one on your tank you stand so firm as it skimmerless being “the” way to go. ;-)”
My understanding is that if you want to keep animals successfully in reef aquarium, then why not recreate environment where they come from, then sand-bed ecosystem component to a reef aquarium is likely the most important part of the entire system. I would strongly suggest for anyone to read AHABS Vol1. Issue 6 (Ron Shimek's Website... AHABS) $6, AHABS are the most important literature I have read about reef aquarium husbandry.
I never said that ANYONE should run a reef tank without a skimmer, it’s just that I personally would not run one IF I can avoid it. I think skimmers are GREAT, I possibly find myself needing one if my “Ecosystem” will require feeding of more than 6 frozen cubes and 50 ml of DT’s phytoplankton daily and not be able to keep nutrients under control. I can barely keep phosphates at 0.03ppm using Hanna tester and nitrates at 1-2 ppm. I ran a skimmer before and played with it, learning how system handled it. I removed it WAY too early, before my system “matured”. I was down to few hours a day, at that point I decided to remove it completely.

You Said:
“I just wanted to argue the point that DSB is not for everyone and I would personally never recommend one to a newby hobbyist. The majority of people playing with marine tanks I would consider newbys. This is not a simple or cheap hobby by any means and there is a constant flux of people getting in and out. I would say 90% of hobbyist have no business running a DSB. If you glance through YouTube videos and reef centrals tank of the month you’ll find many beautiful and successful aquariums and a great deal of them have shallow sand beds or bare bottom tanks.”

I agree, unless 90% would learn more about environment their captive animals came from. AHABS issue one is a GOOD start.

You Said:
“Dr. Ron Shimek may have said, "THE most important component of a coral reef aquarium is a deep sand bed. " however how many full tank shots of his are admired by hobbyist? If a FTS of any of his tank were featured on reef centrals tank of the month people would get all chocked up about how “ugly” it is. Truth is beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If you like studying worms and other sand bed macrofauna a DSB may be for you. Just curious, what was your signature line before that? Something about those giving advice should show pictures of their tanks? And didn’t you recently argue that any individual giving advice on aquariums should show photos of their tanks? Kind of contradicts your current signature doesn’t it? ;-)”
In issue 6 of AHABS Ron said “Now, at this point I should differentiate between “a coral reef aquarium system” established by an aquarist who has attempted to mimic a real reef, versus “a coral garden,” or perhaps a bit better, “a coral prison,” where the aquarist is attempting to “bonsai” a wide variety of corals in a small volume. This latter type of aquarium is prone to a wide variety of disorders and organism problems simply to due to the unnatural situations that it engenders and many of the processes that promote stability are no longer capable of functioning.” and I completely AGREE.
It was David Saxby who said “Always look at some ones aquarium before taking their advice” The best coral reef aquarium in England.mov - YouTube

You said:
“Dr. Shimek also hates how destructive fish are. He would rather, and most often does, keep a fishless system.(note I said fishless, meaning without a single fish, not fish only) He also hates hermit crabs and would never have them in a display. If Dr. Shimek were to see your tank he may comment that, “If you think the critters you see now are cool try removing all the fish for a couple of months and see what happens”. He may also tell you how unnatural it is to keep animals from different oceans together. Many of the things people admire about your tank Dr. Shimek may find very unappealing.”

And He is rite on all counts. Here is my thread on his forum. http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic115239-11-1.aspx

You said:
“Many of the moderators on reef central would say if you do what you love for a living(work in the industry) you are evil and unwelcome on their forums unless you sponsor them. If I had a million dollars to spend on advertising I don’t believe I would support RC.”

I personally find reefcentral.com; well let’s put it this way: JUNK. If you like to build LED fixture or too lazy to learn about Alk/Cal/Mag then maybe it’s ok to read. You should see what I wrote about their DSB thread (I was a little arrogant), but I said what I think.

The bottom line is, I think the best way to manage and maintain a coral reef or marine aquarium of any kind is to consider that it is a “microcosm,” or a miniature version of the real reef. AHABS issue 4 has article “An Introduction To Reef Aquaria As Artificial Ecosystems.”

[Rosti]

[quote=“Gordonious, post:263, topic:2892”]

[quote=“Rosti, post:12, topic:2892”]
Sump/refuge
Eshopps Refugium 36" x 14" x 16", 1 in refuge mud[/quote]

Just out of curiosity what type of “refuge mud” did you use? I’m getting ready to set up a new refugium in the next couple of months and I am not sure what I am going to use. I already purchased some KoraLagoon that I am considering using, but I’m open. [/quote]

I just “happen to have” Miracle-mud but don’t thinks there is anything miracle in it. Any mud (sediment of this size) will do great in refugium. Ron don’t care for refugium AS a filtration function and don’t think it does anything, and he is probably correct. My main reason was to have different sediment (mud)size in refugium in order to have diversity of critters that like this size of mud to leave in. Mud in display will blow everywhere. I think the trick is, and I have to ask Ron about it, is to treat it as “DSB” by feeding it and restocking it from good source. NO NO on filter socks, basically let food make it to refugium and keep critters going. This way it’s not only refugium, but also a “biofilter”. It works for me.
Miracle-mud producer recommends replacing same of it every so often, and he is correct. If you don’t let food in and don’t add microfauna than it will accumulate nutrients and collapse just like DSB would if not maintained properly. So replacing mud makes sense.
Jon, when you stop by next time and pick up $70 I owe you for salt, I will show you incredible live in refugium, maybe you can describe some for me. ;D

[Rosti]

Colony from Pres. Craig and few more shots.

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[Gordonious]

Found this too late to respond to all, so I’ll have to get to the rest tomorrow, but.

You said, “if you want to keep animals successfully in reef aquarium, then why not recreate environment where they come from”

Have a lab test phosphates and Nitrates in your aquarium and then test them from a natural reef. They are likely no where near each other. If you were to strip these nutrient down low enough that they mimiced that on a natural reef(on average) then I wouldn’t think your macro algae would grow.

BTW, you know DTs may not be available for 2-3 months? You may want to stock up enough to last that long if you haven’t already.

Ah, I think David Saxby’s comments are taken out of context a bit. “A test of a good retalier is to look at what he is showing in his shop and you can compare it and if he has a good quality tank in his shop he has some good quality knowledge.” I agree that this is a good way to judge a retail store to an extent, but a good retail store in the gheto may not make enough money to stay in business and keep a display tank running. Many LFS in Cali, NY, Florida, and even PA(anyone heard of That Pet Place) hire aquarium maintenance companys to maintain their display tanks. Can’t judge a book by it’s cover every day. My personal tanks are only doing ok, but my pockets are also empty and that makes it rough to run a beautiful display.
He also said the “first thing you have to do, you have to get good books”. I know that after saying that though that many people on this forum would rather burn a book then read it.

Why part do you agree with Ron’s “coral prison” or me pointing out Ron doesn’t often like the type of tanks most hobbyist admire.
You do see my point about following the advice of someone who likes to grow worms and pods versus someone experienced with keeping a wide variety of Acorpora and fish.

“This latter type of aquarium is prone to a wide variety of disorders and organism problems simply to due to the unnatural situations that it engenders and many of the processes that promote stability are no longer capable of functioning.”
I would argue with him on that. In the past I’ve had up to 100 species of coral with out any “disorders” or “organism problems”.

Rosti ever since we last spoke I’ve either had my Tuesdays stretch to very late hours or had to reschedule. Every time I drive through I think about calling you, but it has never been a good time. Plan to drive up again tomorrow, but may not be until later in the day because I stayed up late talking on the forum.

Have you read this article, “The problem with romanticizing the reef hobby and idolizing demagogues”

The problem with romanticizing the reef hobby and idolizing demagogues | Reef...

I certainly don’t agree with every bit of the article or all of the sarcasm in it, but I think it hits a point I believe in(even if it is not the overall intent of the authors rant) which is there never one answer to a reef aquarium. “The” best temperature, “the” best lighting, “the” best flow, “the” best way to replace mineral lose, “the” best filtration meathod. There is no one and only and never say never. (ok, too tired, I’m ranting)

One final thought. Could anyone who has done the “solid scientific research” on DSB in marine aquariums(please share any peer revied journals) state a species of zooplankton, bacteria, or other live benifical organism that wouldn’t grow elsewhere in an aquarium? If all the research states is that a DSB can effectively reduce phosphates and nitrates how is “effectivly” defined and what differs this approach to “low nutrient” or “oligotrophic” approaches to aquarium keeping.

Oh, and I will look into ordering some of Ron’s work tomorrow.

[kaptken]

Just to stir the mud a little between us clams, here’s a link to a description of rons systems back in 99.

http://www.reefs.org/library/members/r_shimek_042799.html

sounds interesting.

[Rosti]

[quote=“kaptken, post:268, topic:2892”]
Just to stir the mud a little between us clams, here’s a link to a description of rons systems back in 99.

http://www.reefs.org/library/members/r_shimek_042799.html

sounds interesting.[/quote]

Thank you Ken, I LOVE this article.
Here is good one:
What basic critters do you highly recommend for setting up a truly live sand bed?
Worms, worms, more worms. And after you have added those, put in some more worms. Other critters, the various bugs and oddities will largely take care of themselves but a diversity of polychaete (aka bristle worm) species is IMMENSELY important!!! In the real world these are the dominant soft-sediment organisms, and they should be in our artificial reef soft sediment areas as well.

I must be doing something right, I just got 120+ worms from inlandaquatics, to restock sand bed.

[kaptken]

yup, Ron never saw a worm that he didn’t like. anything that crawls through the mud is just fine with him.

[Gordonious]

Man that seems like one sweet tank Ron has… only problem with it is it’s cool to talk about, but most of us got into reefing not just to chat online about stuff, but to see a beautiful tank. That page is all white background with black text. WHERE IS THE PICTURES, LOL.

There is always more then one way to do things. With my stony display tank my biggest problem is over growth of other animals. Everything is growing like crazy. Dose kalk with top off and keep turning my Ca reactor up more and more and my levels still drop, but regardless stuff grows. Can’t find a single worm in this system and it’s bare bottom with out a spec of sand.
In my “dirty” softy display, that now shares a sump with a large Moray eel, I do find occasional worms, but not often and it would seem only 3-4 species(speaking of just segmented, so excluding “feather dusters” in that statement). That being said I have TONs of feather dusters. Hundreds of little white ones that grow to have 2cm fans, and at least 100 white tube red fan mini guys.

Does anyone have worms with white calcium tube(similar to coco worms) with white or clear fan? I am not interested in vermetid snails just talking little mini “feather dusters”.

Don’t get me wrong I love my critters. Paying so much attention to them and a DSB just doesn’t seem to be “the” one and only way to keep a successful reef tank or in my opinion the best way in most situations. Mad respect for those that keep them and to each their own. I can’t take anything away from the beauty of having such a diverse thriving system, but just isn’t “the” way for me.

[Rosti]

Ron was nice to share his aquarium with us, http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic115655-11-1.aspx

[Rosti]

Flame Angelfish (Centropyge loriculus)

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[Rosti]

more of Flame Angelfish (Centropyge loriculus)

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[houndsbayman]

Do you have any problem with polyp extension beacause of the flame angel?

[kaptken]

Thanks for the post Rosti. I see Ron is all high tech like me.

[Gordonious]

Nice pics as always.

Guessing you’ve given up on keeping zoanthids all together?

[Rosti]

[quote=“Gordonious, post:277, topic:2892”]
Nice pics as always.

Guessing you’ve given up on keeping zoanthids all together? [/quote]

No zoanthids or clams for now.

[Rosti]

Six Line Wrasse (Pseudocheilinus hexataenia)

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[Rosti]

[quote=“houndsbayman, post:275, topic:2892”]
Do you have any problem with polyp extension beacause of the flame angel?[/quote]
I am not sure, I do see both angels grazing at times on acropora colonies, but their grazing is spread out. Most of my acros extend their polyps at night only due to available zooplankton. So I don’t think they cause any significant problems.

Here it goes.

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